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Discovering Truth
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Churchill
Sunday, January 21, 2007
A Mosaic of Silent Sorrows
I am filled with a heavy heart as I sit down to write this. For many years I invested my life into a group of people that I came to love, and believed they loved me. That group was said to be a place where the many become one . A place where people could belong. A group that states it
wants: “To be known by love”. Yet, over the years, as I have met people, the mention of this organization often times stirs up fear, hurt, disillusionment, and even rage. As a person who had a significant role in this group, myself along with other leaders, passionately embraced the name
for this organization, because we thought that it would personify the image of what “Church” should be - a place where the broken can find healing. Instead, under the leadership of the pastor and his team, too often they have inflicted emotional and spiritual wounds; leaving people to
fend for themselves. I have agonized over writing this, because I am grateful for the way that this collection of people invested in my life as a Christian, and I have not wanted anyone to misunderstand my sorrow, confusing it to be bitterness. However, the reason that I grieve is because I
know good people who have been manipulated, rejected, and abandoned. I have done, what far too many have done over the past years, when it comes to their negative experience with this organization - nothing. In the past, I chose to be silent about a place that emotionally abuses
people in the name of the Church. I was led to believe that it was wrong to ask questions about the actions of its leaders. I was told that I would be considered an ungrateful, rebellious, or a bitter person. It upsets me to think that there are still individuals who are being treated in this
manner. For example, I have talked to many people who were readily embraced for their talents, yet were quickly discarded when they were no longer of use. I am grieved to realize now that I naively participated in, and sat by watching, as good brothers and sisters were emotionally
broken for the benefit of this group. It deeply concerns me to think that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people, that this group influences. I invite you to respond to this blog. There are many good people who are unaware or unwilling to recognize the abuses that have occured,
and continue to occur, in this organization. Please share your personal experiences concerning this group here (with respect and all honesty).
Posted by Robbie Sortino at 10:57 PM
71 comments:
Yepiz said...
Let me begin by saying, "welcome to the nerdy life of Blogging.
Bro, I feel you, relate, and completely understand.
As someone on their list, I guess I have a lot to say. You have always been, and will be my mentor and friend.
Thank you for helping me and my wife when no one at this institution would.
Thank you for teaching me what it really means to "be known by love."
Man, I can keep writing on this all day. But i would just write a novel here.
January 23, 2007 10:18 AM
ESP96 said...
I have to say, That I completely agree with you. I have seen and heard first hand what is going on there. My uncle is being phased out of leadership to bring in others, who do as you stated...dont ask questions. Its very disturbing and I'm glad you've wrote this. It all kind of reminds me of
the Star Wars saga from the beginning.
-A. Y.
January 23, 2007 11:13 AM
pableezy said...
ah, where do i begin?
i'll post stories later, but for now, i just want to voice my support for what you are doing.
i have been out of the MOP for a LONG time now. but i can tell you that some scars still remain, and that i'm not the only one. i know plenty of people that left the MOP many years ago and are still very damaged by the experiences they had. i know others that continue to go even though
they loathe it because of the power of fear and guilt.
from the MOP i learned how to run a business. from the bible, i had to relearn how to be a part of a community of faith.
so i'm down to speak truth here and share our experiences. after all, we should only fear truth if we have something to hide.
January 23, 2007 11:55 AM
loweyesah said...
Thanks Robbie. I whole Heartedly Agree with you.
-Frank Loaiza
January 23, 2007 3:20 PM
my2sense said...
Hi,
I too was a victim of the manipulation of this church. Pastor Irwin is a phoney, and I should have let every friend I know of that fact. Instead, I left quietly with my family. Not to say that I didn't let him have it personally. We had a 3 hour "conversation" one day after service. I just didn't want to
hurt the flock by exposing him. Boy, what a mistake. This guy just keeps getting bigger and more dangerous. You'd think from the articles I've read recently, that he's the second coming.
He's basically selling ancient mysticism wrapped in Christianity. This seems to be the trend in some churches. A watered-down version of the Gospel. Mosaic seems to have become a cult, or at least has the potential to be one.
I'm all for reaching out to the post-modern world. I just think that we should reach out with truth.
Keep your head up Robbie. God knows what you've been through. And He cares and loves you.
Peace be with you.
January 23, 2007 4:26 PM
pableezy said...
yo, i had a great youth pastor at the MOP. :)
shoot, i still find myself using his little sayings from time to time....
January 23, 2007 4:59 PM
trazomfreak said...
Thank you for this.
For some reason, the private hell that I've experienced was thought of as rebellion. But now as things are 'in the light' I now know it wasn't me.
And you, you've always been you. Real. And people saw that immediately. It is such a contrast to what Alex & I experienced as things "spiraled" out of control with the Mosaic of Pain. We were not only slapped in the face BUT we were also kicked out on our arses. Thank you for being
you because when things were "down" we always knew where you stood.
Robbie...for years, I knew THIS was coming. I couldn't wait! I'm so glad that God has spoken through you to finally get this out. And since we've all been a victim...all I can say is...it's in God's hands!
Thank you. ♥
January 23, 2007 11:20 PM
Yepiz said...
Ok, I can now give a more detail response.
I too have seen way too many God fearing Christians hurt by this "movement." I can say that this is more a movemnet of pain than a movement for Christ.
So what do I want?
I want Erwin mcManus to humble himself before a public audience and acknowledge and repent for the hundreds/thousands of individuals he has hurt, misused, and hurt.
I also believe that he should step down.
Just so you know, I have written to the Southern Baptist Convention and have requested their assistance. I'm not sure if they will help. But it's a start into this battle.
My wife and I went through a hell that no married couple should have to expereince on their first two years of marriage.
All for the sake of the "movement."
Pableezy said it best one time:
"they are like the Borg in the mother ship who come in and assimilate you into the collective."
Sounds like something from Jung Psychology.
Mosaic had more than ample time to "fix" these issues. Now, god has put us in a place where he will use our lives to stop a "movement" that obviously is falling short of being "known by love."
Let the commencement of the Truth behind this man, and his movement, take place. let the world see Erwin's Mysticism and relativism theology come to light. Let us expose his ties to the McLarens, Pagitt's, and Campolo's begin.
Robbie, you have began something that many of us have been to afrid to begin. A counter-revolution for true meaning of the church to "Look after his sheep."
Amen.
January 24, 2007 1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
It is unfortunate that a vibrant and loving group like Brady had to be sacrificed in order that an aggressive and pain inflicting group like Mosaic could spawn.
The first group never claimed to be perfect, while the latter will never deny being power hungry and set on winning at all costs.
January 24, 2007 1:49 AM
Joser said...
I really believe this will let alot of you heal. Praise God for you Robbie opening up. Again let the healing begin.
January 24, 2007 1:55 AM
pableezy said...
here is one story - a small one:
i was playing with the worship band when wed. night lord supper was still going on. this was like 1997 or so (just to give a throwback and help people see that this stuff has gone on for a long time).
erwin came up to me about 10-15 minutes before the service was supposed to start. he told me that someone had informed him that i was not an official member of mosaic. i said "what's that?" since i had never heard of membership. he briefly explained that a member tithes, is committed
to the community, etc. i told him that i already did all of those things and that i was very committed (which i was). that wasn't enough. he asked me to verbally committ to membership. i told him no because i still didn't understand what that meant. so he said that i couldn't play bass with the
band that night, and not at all until i became a member. now, this was like 5 min to start, so i told him whatever and went to tell gary (the worship leader at the time) what was up.
i can't really describe in words the feeling that i got that day. he was attempting to manipulate me into agreeing to something i didn't even know anything about. furthermore, he used the music as leverage to get me to agree. i was 19, maybe. i hadn't been a christian for even 2 years at the
time and had NO idea what the heck membership was. he was in complete manipulation mode and it really bothered me. to me, it showed me something about him and the way he deals with people.
the church is not a business. it is a family. that's not how you deal with family...
more later...
January 24, 2007 8:43 AM
Cory Murman said...
I'm just curious as to the origination of your pain. What happened at "MOP"? I used to attend regularly, but I stopped going in order to pursue some opportunities to serve in a church closer to home. Still, I never felt such deep hurt towards "MOP" to warrant a condemnation of their
leadership. I didn't agree with everything they did, but I don't have to agree with every Christian on every issue. Please let your readers know exactly what happened.
January 24, 2007 9:58 AM
Yepiz said...
Cory,
This is not about some disgruntled ex-memebres of Mosaic. it is about much more than that.
All of us here will agree with you that every Church is not perfect and that it impossible to please everyone. as a former youth pastor myself, I understand this better than most.
No, we are here to expose the many times this congregation, with the leadership of McManus, they have hurt individuals or left them to "fend for themselves."
We fully understand that Erwin's intentions may have been good ones. However, after hundreds, or even thousands of people being hurt, we have all decided that enough is enough.
God's Church is not to be a place where people are exploited for their talents until they have no further use by McManus, or his "movement."
As Pableezy said, "the Church is family." Too many people have been used for their talents. then when they see something better, they shove you aside and leave you. If you speak openly and publicly, as I have, you are branded and black listed as "Rebellious, bitter, and un-
understanding."
In my opinion, this is no different than a cult.
How can sit back and let others go through what I went through? This is exactly what Robbie has had to battle within himself and why many of us applaude what we were too unwilling to do.
Again, Erwin's initial intentions may have been good. However, the way they are functioning, in my opinion, is evil.
January 24, 2007 6:12 PM
Anonymous said...
Let's define some terms. A "cult" is a group that takes God's Word, the grace offered through Jesus and adds anything else to that to qualify our santification. I do not think Mosaic is a cult, nor do they make evil choices with the intention of being evil. However, there is a might and power
approach in this groups mentality. This, in and of itself, is contrary to how God desires us to exist as His Church. e.g. 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty. [Zechariah 4:6]
January 24, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 24, 2007 10:30 PM
pableezy said...
anon said: I would encourage everyone to use this forum not to reopen old wounds, but to use it to encourage each other in our walk. Let's leave Erwin and the past behind.
for the most part, i have. i can't speak for others, but even having done that, i still feel this is a worthwhile cause. first of all, some people were deeper hurt than others. some have not dealt with it completely. this is a textbook method of dealing with pain; speaking about it.
but this is twofold in my opinion. those that wanted to speak and heal could have done that in a closed room.
why then the public blog?
because others should hear about what is happening. others should realize that the facade is not the reality, and that behind the closed doors, there is much deception and manipulation of the truth happening.
i recall being in the room when they told us that gary was leaving brady/mosaic. i was in the room when they announced bro thom was leaving. if we want to talk deception, we can start right there and fill this blog till 2008.
what about robert martinez? i'm sure the whole congregation feels all warm and fuzzy about the nice old elder retiring.
please, you insult your family when you lie to their face like that.
January 25, 2007 7:59 AM
Oncoming Traffic said...
To “honestly can't remember”,
This is not about a lack of faith of what God is able to do apart from us. I’ve often asked why so many times we think God is going to act in a situation where we are not willing to act. People identify that there is a problem then expect God to solve it on his own.
You’re words seem to be hiding contradictions. It almost seems you’re saying that the hurt that mosaic has inflicted was allowed to happen so that we can become better people. I guess if that is the case we should be thanking mosaic for the lesson of forgiveness and healing. However
I do not believe that we are the center of this situation. It is not all about us. You obvious admit mosaic is unhealthy yet it seems you feel the problem will just go away if we find a better church and put it out of our heads. It does not seem to be that it is even an issue for you that there are still
people continuing to be hurt by the same place that hurt you.
Every time I hear or read someone talk about how we as christians should forgive and just move on I can’t help to feel that their perspective is of a selfish nature. Once again, it is not all about us. Yes we need to forgive but what does that look like? Why have the words “forgive” and
“bitterness” become such powerful tools for manipulation? It seems people have tagged new attributes to what forgiveness looks like which control peoples willingness to act in difficult and unpopular situations. Though on the surface your words seems to be noble, the heart of what
you are saying is surrounded by self-centered needs. If Christ had followed your system of tackling problems he would have never been crucified on our behalf. Christ would have just done the popular and pleasant thing and walked away from the whole thing when Pilot gave him the
opportunity.
Yes God brings healing but he brings it with hopes that we will help others.
I image God grieves when he watches us go threw difficult situations, overcome them, then move on and do nothing to solve the original situation that is still hurting others.
God is in control this I agree with, so if he just wanted us to be at a place of peace why didn't he help us avoid the separate difficulties we faced at mosaic in the first place? When I am tempted so often to stay quiet and forget about mosaic I feel that I am somehow disappointing God. Christ
was crucified to create the church yet we struggle with acting on our convictions to protect it. Just imagine what Christ went through in the garden of Gethsemane yet he did the right thing.
It seems you have used the vulnerable and honest comments before yours to make yourself look noble. I think the noble thing that is really being done hear is that of those who are willing to speak truth even at the risk that they will be insulted.
You might see it as people reopening old wounds, but really what is taking place is an attempt to stop the blade that continues to inflicted new ones on others. What I am seeing from these people is not that they have not forgiven or healed but rather that they are trying to stop a pattern.
Hopefully the need for forgiveness and healing as far as mosaic is concerned will become less and less necessary.
January 25, 2007 11:36 AM
Anonymous said...
If a group or individual hurts someone we love, as Christians we are called to forgive that group or individual. That does not mean we are suppose to forget our civic responsibility. Take for instance a murderer or child molester attacks your child or family member. Should we forgive
that individual? With God's grace, yes. Should we tell the courts, "Forget it, don't conduct a trial to determine their guilt and punishment. I have forgiven them." What about the others they will most certainly injure if they are not held accountable? Unfortunately, it is the same case with
Mosaic. If this group is "using" God's people and discarding them, the way that many of us have experienced, then we all have a responsibility to call Mosaic to a position of accountability.
January 25, 2007 12:25 PM
Anonymous said...
I don't think that's just a problem with Mosaic, but a problem with many churches in general and why so many come to leave churches, or even worse : wind up despising that religion they once held so dearly possibly losing salvation with a change of mindset.
I count myself fortunate for still believing in my Savior, reading my Bible, praying, and still continue in a search for a church of people whom do not pass judgment, and who can really sit and look at things with reason and not make excuses or quote scripture and bend it to their own
context. People who just want to worship, and be loved.
There were many people I admired from Brady, and even Mosaic. I saw some hopeful peoples talents used, and of course discarded for various reasons. While you feel you may have participated in this Robbie I can say that personally I feel that you were an outstanding mentor for the
short time I talked with you and always found you to be someone seeking the truth and a person I could feel comfortable going to for anything knowing I would not get the short end of the stick so to speak. It's too bad that more of the leaders weren't of that caliber.
As I've branched out to other churches and talked to other people it seems Mosaic has become well known in the church community as a place not many people like. Which I find quite saddening, there's already enough division between those who study the bible without needing any
more. One wonders if people can just come to a point where they can agree to disagree but just agree on the one important part that binds us all.
I don't think I have any contact with a single Mosaic member anymore, mostly by choice even though I miss some of them dearly. I did not want to get sucked back in to that which I felt was not wholly good for me and my development. I was eager to please, but not ready for that which
was entailed. Instead of letting me build up to it the rise and fall did not help me much at all. Not to mention my own sins which did a number on my startling realization that even I was not what I had thought. We're only as strong as the whole.
In the end, we're just a bunch of people with flaws looking for a place to call home that isn't in this world.
-J.C.
PR 25:16
January 25, 2007 12:52 PM
Robbie Sortino said...
As the site administrator I was asked by the original writer "Anonymous", who posted on January 24, 2007 at 10:30pm to remove their post, which I have.
January 25, 2007 9:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Here's a strange one. We were missionaries with SBC/Mosaic. While preparing to return to the field, God sent some 17-22 year olds our way. To be honest, I wasn’t too excited about this “inconvenience” since we were in the middle of packing our lives up for the field, with a newborn,
no less. Just the same, God moved and nearly a dozen came to Christ in a few weeks, all from a weekly impromptu Bible study. Knowing that we needed to plug them into a body of believers before leaving the country my wife and I took them to Mosaic a few times. Erwin wasn’t exactly
interested. I assume it was because they did not get saved via an official Mosaic event. Mind you, they all wanted to plug into a church. As a matter of fact, a few of them were baptized at Mosaic – that was strange, too. On the big day (this is just dawning on me how strange that moment
was) there was nobody in the baptismal rooms to perform the ceremonies! It ended up that I was asked to put on a robe and do the honors. Thank God that He is in charge. Even though none of those dynamic and excited new Believers were welcome at Mosaic, they all continued on
with their walks; plugging into different churches. A few of them are serving either in ministry or on the mission field today.
January 25, 2007 11:45 PM
pableezy said...
i'll give you the abrisged version of the fall of the college ministry when i was there.
for a while we had heard erwin talk about how the college students were the future leaders blah blah blah. i agreed, but their actions didn't follow.
there was a huge gap between the college ministry and the leadership of the church. for whatever reason, we weren't plugged in very well. we had very little encouragement or support really from the man that kept saying that we were the future. we were kinda on our own.
we even shared a whopping budget of $2G's with another ministry (ironically led by the administrator of this blog, who spent most of the money before we even knew it existed. LOL, I ain't mad at you Robbie!) so we ended up bankrolling it ourselves.
but we were working hard and excited. we had a great leader at the helm (greg soo hoo) and he was doing his thing. we had committed small group leaders that were great. we were happy, we were growing (significantly!) and that era of college ministry was, to this day, one of the most
alive and growing ministries i have been a part of.
several years down the road, we were growing weary of all of the stuff that was going on around us. we started asking questions. we started voicing discontentment.
shortly after that came the "violent overthrow" as i like to call it. they removed greg from our leadership position and forced another dude on us that none of us particularly liked...but Erwin did! he had a close relationship with him and wanted him to lead this ministry instead of greg, who
was doing an amazing job and had been the only one that was willing to go to bat with us before this point!
he came in, changed and restructured everything...and succeeded in killing that ministry within the year.
welcome to the power plays of the MOP.
January 26, 2007 8:40 AM
Gary Natisch said...
Robbie & Others posting here,
With all do respect this sounds like a lot of whining to me. You and I have never met personally, however when everything took place with your marriage that caused you to leave Mosaic, many people that I know tried to surround you and you refused their company on numerous
occasions. In all fairness I don’t know if Erwin tried directly but does that really matter? I think it’s absurd that how many people think that Erwin needs to come to the rescue every time something bad happens in our life. The only one we should ever rely 100% on is God. I think we
sometimes forget that our Pastors are people too with flaws, sins and temptations just as all of us are. Erwin is just one person and his main focus is to get the Gospel out to those who don’t have it. I have been a member of Mosaic since 2001; however I have attended off and on since
1975. In all of my time at Mosaic I have spoken to Erwin maybe five times, three of which probably consisted all of “Hey Bro”, and here’s that catch, I head up the Men’s Ministry at Mosaic. I mention all this because I am not interested in building a relationship with Erwin (no offensive Erwin)
because he already knows Jesus. I am more interested in getting to know those that do not know Christ and when hardship falls on me (which it has) I rely on God and the Mosaic community as a whole and not on any “one man” knowing that all things good or bad are done for God’s
purpose. Final thought, rather then grabbing pitch forks, torches and spending time building blogs and MySpace accounts trying to scar a community such as Mosaic or any Bible believing church (which all have flaws) shouldn’t you be investing the little time we have on this Earth in
people who may never know Jesus unless through you? Don’t tear down, build up, as long as the Gospel is being preached does it matter what our personal feelings are?
Robbie, I pray for you and your family. I also pray that if Mosaic or Erwin has hurt you that you find it in your heart to forgive us and him.
Strength & Honor,
Gary
January 26, 2007 10:31 AM
Anonymous said...
The problem is even worse than we thought! Pain at Mosaic? Sadly, sometimes! It is truly everywhere we look sometimes. The worst thing of all is that not only does Mosaic have pain, but the entire world and even cosmos has pain! The scenario darkens as even each one of us
carries pain inside ourselves!!!!
Yes, each of us is either the inflictor of the pain or the recipient of it. This is why Mosaic and the world have pain, because it is first in us as individuals!!! Oh, the pain I have felt in my own life. But also, OHHHH the joy! Oh the triumph in Christ! Oh the Victory! The Hope eats away at my pain.
The unspeakable Love!!! I love you. I love you so much it hurts! Oh how I lament your pain! The pain I carry today is because you hurt! I love you! I love you! I'm quiet and reserved. I don't always know how to say it. Our paths may never cross again. But I love you.
Please hear me. I wish you joy, happiness, comfort, peace, and love! God bless you in the name of Jesus--may his face shine upon you! And as for Mosaic? I love Mosaic!
Debbie B.
January 26, 2007 10:34 AM
Anonymous said...
Robbie,
After reading your blog, I was grieved to hear of your pain. We have been through a great deal of tough times together over the years, but we had some great moments as well.
Just as you are, I am filled with sorrow. You are right in that the church has had a lot of unhealthy patterns to overcome. All churches are filled with broken people and flawed leaders. As you know we have been working hard to create a community that is loving, kind, and authentic - a
community focused on helping people experience and discover a genuine relationship with God through Christ. You were a big part of helping us to try and change things and attempt to create health and genuine community.
We will never be perfect as a community nor will we meet every need or lead without making mistakes. For years, Erwin has reminded us of the importance of serving each other and depending on the Lord, especially when we face difficult times. Every time that we meet as a community
at Mosaic and celebrate the Lord's Supper, we also commission new volunteer staff. We are recruiting, equipping, and mobilizing new pastors and new ministers to help meet the needs of people throughout the city and within our community. Erwin cannot and should not be the only one
to be there for us. There are too many needs to be met, and he is human like the rest of us. However, when we look to Christ and as a community lose our lives in serving others, remarkable and miraculous things happen!
In the Scriptures, Jesus clearly states we are to approach our brother when we are offended and to be careful about accusations (Matthew 18:15-17, Titus 3:2). I was surprised you would email people you do not know and publish your accusations online rather than follow the path of
Jesus. In another passage, Jesus challenges us to go to the brother we have offended (Matthew 5:23-24). I am writing to ask that you would meet with me or meet with Erwin. In the past, you had mentioned this was unnecessary, but we can never learn from any mistakes we may have
made without a chance to hear from you in person why you have come to these conclusions. The enemy would love nothing more than to divide or at least distract us.
We miss you, and we love you, Robbie.
Praying,
Eric
eric@mosaic.org
562 908 2200 ext. 116
January 26, 2007 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 26, 2007 7:18 PM
MOPmember said...
I don't think this is about an individual...it's the G R O U P. As the leader goes, so goes the group. Like all too many churches, Mosaic needs to control it's people, and if possible they want to control all others too. Quoting scripture to try and make their point. Personal attacks, etc...
January 26, 2007 9:09 PM
Oncoming Traffic said...
Carrie,
You might be saddened by this website, but I am saddened by the need for it. Please point out what you define as slander, and show us what words on this page meet that definition. There are children who have been affected by the carelessness of mosaic, do they not matter because
they are believers? Mosaic is talented at using scripture to control and create fear in people, yet scripture holds little value when it comes to being relevant to culture.
You talk about forgiving, but exactly what is it we
need to forgive? Is this in a way you admitting that mosaic has wronged people? I have no choice, but to think that it is because you can’t forgive unless there has been sin. So, therefore, you as a staff member’s wife, are saying that these people are right and that wrong has been done
to them by mosaic, right?
You mentioned Robbie’s name as though he is leading this, but I promise you he is not. This is not being lead by one, but this is being lead by the convictions of many. I will not be controlled by manipulation, but by the conviction that God has placed in my heart.
January 26, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
why address this topic here? cuz' a church that tries to put "gag-orders" on their ousted leaders will not allow an in-house discussion to occur. hopefully non-christians will stumble in here and avoid places like mosaic. go to a place that you will be loved unconditionally - with zero
reservation. a place that practices what it preaches. you go oncoming traffic! I could not have said it better...
January 26, 2007 10:52 PM
Yepiz said...
Gary said...I think it’s absurd that how many people think that Erwin needs to come to the rescue every time something bad happens in our life.
Well, you obviously don't know Robbie.
This guy was one of Erwin's right hand guys. You know, the guy that began Urban Mosaic and Erwin took the credit. The guy that had the vision to start a Church in Pasadena and Erwin came (CEO like) and dismantled it's leadership and created another service he could speak at or
promote his next book.
Also, the fact that many of the people attending Mosaic were brought in by...well...um, Robbie, has to merrit at least a visit from Erwin don't you think? I mean, isn't that what Pastors are supposed to do; Look after their flock when they need them most?
Gary, you call yourself a community. But what example is that of community from your own Pastor?
Carrie said...Yepiz, the bitterness that flows from your words spills and spills into cups that others drink...
Wow, I guess you can now brand me as the anti-Christ while you are at it. And you say I sound bitter?
Again, six months ago, I would have agreed that I was still bitter. But I'm not anymore.
No. I'm angry. And it's not anger in the evil way either. It's God's righteous anger towards a community that have hurt, misused, abandoned, and manipulated His children all in His name.
And since mosaic members like to use Scripture to manipulate or grind an axe, I will say this.
"Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater
condemnation." - Mark 12:38 ESV
Keep calling yourself a movement. Keep trying to gain notoriety as the "cool" Church. I'm sure that type of humility is not what Jesus was referring to in the above passage.
But what do I know, I'm only bitter. Right?
January 26, 2007 11:09 PM
Anonymous said...
This blog and the myspace page does hurt and contains a lot of pain.
I was a part of this church and a part of the pain, I believe, by not recognizing or responding to the pain that I "heard" about. By not noticing when people left,not calling and saying hey what's up? by not asking the questions when something was strange, not pressing for answers or
biblical direction when I needed to. I went on with my passionate vision of who I thought I needed to be. I am guilty.
Someone asked why address this topic here? Could this blog be a natural result of a church not fully following Matthew 18: 15-18? When was the last time this church fully followed all the principles of this verse? There are more principles to this verse then just the first step. This verse
was not meant as a way to quiet people but as a way to deal with sin. Maybe this blog is a result (or consequence) of sin not being fully dealt with biblically here at this church? When was the last time it was? When was the last time someone was approached with their errors and asked
to repent and showed a way through their errors back to the cross? Gal 6:1 -Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. If they didn't repent when was the last time it was taken to one more
person, then again to the whole church?
Someone said, can't you just forgive? It's not just about forgiveness and moving on. What do we do with the verse Luke 17:3 3So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."
Is there repentance here? Is there someone asking the question why are people hurt? Why do they need a forum? What can we do as far as it up to us to be at peace? What was my part in this? How can I be a part of restoration?
Why is it that people are always interested in saying why is this person dividing, why are you saying this, instead of looking at what the person might be saying? Isn't the wise thing that no matter how someone says something to look to see what truth might be there? Even if it's just a
small truth?
And for the writers on this blog with some issues - would you meet with Erwin and the leaders if they did call a meeting? What would you ideally be praying for in this? What would be the best scenario for you? Do you think God is big enough to turn this situation around? For you? For
Mosaic? Where do you go from here?
Just something to think about.
January 26, 2007 11:14 PM
pableezy said...
i've read several people write about robbie's pain. most of us know what you mean, but that is not what robbie is talking about here. the issues that he and others are bringing to light have to do with the methodology of the mosaic leadership in dealing with people, not wounds from his/our
personal lives.
let's stick to the topic here and not discuss his personal situations.
the other theme from people writing in support of mosaic is forgiveness. of course the bible says that we need to forgive. that is a given. but that is completely separate from protecting people from encountering some of the same situations by speaking the truth. just because we forgive
does not mean that we should allow these things to continue.
i will stand with the bible in calling out anyone that is writing on this blog but is unwilling to forgive. but if our intentions are right and our consciences clean, then we should be able to share our experiences openly.
January 26, 2007 11:14 PM
an insider said...
Just as when Benny Hinn was exposed as a con-man on Dateline NBC in 2002 and millions refuse to believe, there will be thousands that refuse to believe the truth about Erwin McManus. Some of those people have already posted here. Others are sending emails confirming that they
are living in denial--they refuse to pull their head out of the sand. But there are some questions to which they should ascertain answers from those who will tell the truth. Erwin McManus is not a person who will answer truthfully.
Why did he send his henchmen to demand the resignation of Thom Wolf rather than being there himself? Why did he send others to boot out the man who had led that church for almost 3 decades, and yet wouldn’t even be present in the meeting? He has claimed he had nothing to do
with it. How can the lead elder have nothing to do with it? A real leader and person of integrity would not have accepted a forced resignation without talking to the one who was forced out.
Now Erwin forces Robert Martinez out, and puts a gag order on him, and spins it as though Robert came to a decision to retire on his own. Why can Robert not talk about what really happened? Why is his extended family reprimanded for telling the truth about what really happened?
Can Robert honestly answer the question, “Are you being threatened to silence your family?” Ask anyone in his family if they can talk openly about what really happened.
Why have many overseas workers and other leaders discovered that Erwin has repeated to numerous others what they shared with him in confidence? Many brothers and sisters went to him for counsel only to have their struggles and problems passed on by him to others who had
no reason to hear those things. It is pretty disingenuous for anyone associated with Erwin to say that Robbie or anyone else should talk privately with Erwin. Erwin is the worst sort of gossip. He doesn’t know the meaning of private or confidential. Brother to brother? Hello? Is that how he
dealt with Thom Wolf?
Get his former staff--those that are not under some signed gag order--to tell you how he divides and conquers. He plays his staff against each other so he can manipulate and control them. What kind of a person does this? Has anyone ever investigated whether there is some sort of
psychosis or neurosis driving this behavior?
And has there ever been an audit into his use of funds designated for purposes and projects other than those for which they were used?
There is a deep, dark hole that needs to be explored. But Erwin will do whatever necessary to keep that darkness from being brought into the light. There were Erwins present in Jesus’ day. Paul warned of the Erwins that would come. People of integrity do not ensure the darkness
remains covered by the use of gag orders.
January 27, 2007 9:10 AM
MOPmember said...
Many, many past Mosaic members have tried to address this in private; only to be ignored and shunned. Well, now it's time to shed some light on the problem...the TRUTH hurts.
January 27, 2007 10:57 AM
Anonymous said...
Now we're getting somewhere. This guy will take information told him in confidence and use it against you and others, including your children...be very careful!
In answer to the question where does Erwin get his learned behavior from? How about the fact that he and his brother worked for the SBC as professional "Ousters". That's right before he landed at Brady they were on staff with the SBC Home Mission Board and deployed to churches
to assist the leadership of struggling and dying SBC churches.
How did they "assist" you might ask? They met with the elders and staff to help them formulate strategies to removing tenured pastors. Sound familiar? Only Brady was thriving and growing when Erwin did it there. Oh yeah, and there was a bit of CONFLICT OF INTEREST, in that he
inherited the ousted pastor’s pulpit…
January 27, 2007 11:10 AM
Anonymous said...
As someone who served at Mosaic for a few years, okay, many years, as a youth worker and then a college leader, I think I can shed light on some issues. First of all, I speak as someone not personally offended by Erwin McManus. In fact, I am relieved that any problems I had with
Erwin I voiced. I am very fortunate, I realize, that he gave me the time to listen to my disagreements. I know that others have been frustrated by the fact that he did not give them much one on one to vent frustrations. We resolved any lingering problems amicably; however, the
disagreements I had with the church eventually took their toll: I ultimately left Mosaic.
As I read this blog published by Robbie Sortino, it’s important to keep in mind not just what is being posted, but by whom. These are not simply disillusioned believers angry at slights and should just "move on" as someone who posted on the Mosaic of Pain Myspace suggested. On this
blog alone, the following people have posted: Sortino, Frank Loaiza, Pablo Tovar, Alex Yepiz, and anonymous, who served as a missionary for Mosaic. So you have a former pastor, a former youth pastor, two former college leaders, and a missionary, all of whom enjoy excellent
reputations. Add these to the list of people devastated by the decisions of this leadership: a present leader, according to the poster Esp96. In addition, we haven’t heard from the former senior pastor but it’s no secret his personal devastation with the church having served there for
nearly thirty years and subsequently dismissed. I personally know about a dozen more people who have been hurt that haven’t posted. Their claims can hardly be dismissed as arbitrary or even sour grapes directed at a "great guy like Erwin" as someone posted. These are serious
claims by serious people. Even if you don’t like the claims, I invite you to at least READ them, think about them, and if you must, disagree with them. To just delete them without much thought does a great disservice to people who literally built this church with their hard work, tears, and
prayers.
Ruben Aguilar
January 27, 2007 11:29 AM
Ken Silva said...
Hello Robbie,
Let me offer an ear if you want to talk with me off the record about all this. I feel led of the Lord to be willing to take this on as a project should any be led to speak to me.
I leave that with those it involves but as one who has already been reaching Erwin and his man-centered teachings of love of self it would be within what I am doing to look into this further.
Now the offer is there and you know where I am. :-)
January 28, 2007 6:21 AM
Anonymous said...
I was a member of The Church on Brady and then Mosaic. I was in leadership and very involved in life at Mosaic. Mosaic was my “third place” and the place I most wanted to be. I did not leave Mosaic on a bad note and I count many of the people on both sides of these postings as
friends. I do not have a personal story of deceit, betrayal, or manipulation to tell, but I do have questions that have bothered me for some time and I hope some of you will comment and shed some light on the subject.
I was there when Erwin took the reigns of leadership, and I was there the night we were all told that Brother Tom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship somewhere else. That night we all gathered together in the sanctuary at Brady as Erwin shared in a very heartfelt way how difficult it
had been for him to lead while Brother Tom stayed on as Teaching Pastor. He shared how he was torn between his affection for Brother Tom and his need to lead the church as he had been called. I believe it was Rick Yamamoto who told us how they had sought counsel from other
church leaders and how they came to the conclusion that Brother Tom needed to leave for the sake of the church. The gravity of the situation weighed on us all. Our happy family was experiencing a great loss. That in and of itself was saddening, but what would come next would draw a
collective sigh from the room. Erwin went on tell us that Brother Tom did not take the news well and was in disagreement with him and the elders. He told us that he and the elders had extended an invitation to Brother Tom so that they could work out there differences but that Brother Tom
had refused to meet with them… Were you there? Do you remember that moment? I do, and I remember the feeling of that moment very well. I felt shaken. Our stalwart teacher Brother Tom had fallen. His pride had gotten the better of him. He was so angry and hurt by this all that he would
not even meet with Erwin or the elders that he had known and loved for so long. We were asked to pray for Brother Tom as if he needed to be restored, and I did.
Years passed and I continued to serve at Mosaic until it was time for me to move on. While I often thought of Brother Tom, I didn’t really question much of what happened to him. I trusted that Erwin and the elders did what needed to be done for the sake of the church. A few years ago I ran
into an old friend from Mosaic and we began to reminisce. When the subject of Brother Tom came up he looked at me as if there was something I needed to know. He went on to explain that Brother Tom was indeed invited to meet with Erwin and the Elders, but under three conditions. The
conditions were told to me as follows: 1. Brother Tom had to go alone; he could not bring a witness. 2. Brother Tom would not be allowed to speak or address Erwin and the elders. 3. Brother Tom would not be allowed to tell anyone what was said to him… Did you know this? Have you
ever heard this? Is this troubling to you? It was to me, so much so that I had to find others who could corroborate this. I have not seen Brother Tom in years, so I have not asked him directly, but I have received confirmation from two others whose character would not dare be impugned
by anybody involved in this discussion that knows them.
That night we were led to believe that Brother Tom was the issue; that Brother Tom was refusing to be restored to fellowship. If it is true that there were these three conditions to the meeting, then it was not a call to fellowship - a call to reason together, it was a call for complete surrender
and submission; and I find that frightening. Who would accede to such authoritarian demands? I don’t believe Erwin would. The elders? If all this is true, they already have.
At best it was a simple half-truth, at worst, slanderous. If we had been told of these three conditions that night, it would not have been a collective sigh that was heard, but rather an incredulous gasp because brother Tom had built a Berean Church.
It may seem a small matter to some of you who did not know Brother Tom, but to those of you who do, were you there? Do you remember what was said and how you felt? Rick is it true, were there indeed these conditions placed on Brother Tom and why were we led to believe
something entirely different? Enrique, Robert? David, did you know about this? Gerardo? Did anybody think there was something wrong with misleading us about one of God’s anointed? Ricky, you’re a man with a heart for God, how do you feel about this? Was this fair to Brother Tom?
Is he owed a public apology? I ask even now as you are reading this that the Holy Spirit will not let any of us be mislead and that you may all be blessed with discernment. I would like to hear from the elders how they allowed Brother Tom to be painted in such a false light. How do you feel
about what was done to him?
That night as Pastor Erwin dismissed us, he comforted us and said he knew how upsetting it must have been for us to hear such news. He told us to feel free to ask any questions of him or the elders by submitting them in writing. I know a church leader who submitted questions. He was
asked to come to the church office to have his concerns addressed. When he arrived he was ushered in to a closed door meeting with Erwin and the elders. When he began to speak, Erwin abruptly told him that he would not be allowed to speak during their meeting. His questions
were never addressed. He was told to leave the church and not speak of their meeting. Were other voices silenced? God truly knows.
I have felt for some time now that something very wrong happened at Mosaic. I have been hesitant to ask these questions in the past because I do not want to cast aspersions on one of God’s anointed, however, we need to ask questions and we shouldn’t be afraid of the truth. If what I
was told by these witnesses was a lie, I ask God to speak clearly to me and let me know that I have been deceived, but if what they say is true, I ask God to speak clearly to Erwin, the staff, and those of you who have ears to hear.
May God bless us and guide us all into all truth. May the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin and not allow us to be misled, and may we surrender completely to Christ alone.
January 28, 2007 11:17 PM
Dean Manibog said...
Hi Robbie, I don't know much about what went on with you and Mosaic, but I know your character and your spirt, flaws and all. You were our Pastor in Pasadena. You created community where there was none, your preaching was real and transparent, and you were a servant to all.
We miss you, love you, and support you. Jesus will be exaulted.
January 28, 2007 11:49 PM
loweyesah said...
Yes, I too was there the night we heard about Bro. Tom and Linda being asked to leave. I too wrote down some questions, but never was able to meet with Erwin about those questions. I met with Robert Martinez and he told me what had happened. I was surprised to hear what Robert
told me. I understand that Bro. Tom was hurt, but he, (Tom), always told us that he would continue to be at Brady until he was asked to leave. He was asked to leave and he did. I asked Bro. Tom about his meetings with Erwin and the staff, (in the Summer of 2001), and he graciously told
me that they DID-In-Fact Meet, and that the "ball was in their court" for the next move.
I'm not sure if MOSAIC ever did anything after this. It was sad to me to see these two leaders deal with their issues like this.
I always got the impression that Erwin was always very carefull about "saving face" and making it look like it was the other elders and not HE that asked Bro. Tom to leave. I have always felt that this whole thing was done in a very under-handed manner.
I guess we will never really know...
Sometimes what happens behind closed doors never truly gets revealed.
It's comforting to me to know that God knows and that He will bring justice and that He will ultimately be exalted like Dean said in the previous post.
I was at the Meeting, and that was one more reason that I began to lose respect for Erwin....
-Frank Loaiza
for those wishing to Contact me:
frankloaiza@gmail.com
January 29, 2007 8:09 AM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 29, 2007 6:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I attended or was affiliated with Brady/Mosaic from 1983 thru 1999. Essentially, half of my time with this church was spread equally between the two. I have followed this blog from the time it was first posted. It is unfortunate that things have come to a place where a forum like this is
necessary, but it is.
I was not present when the vote occurred for Erwin to take the reins of leadership, the one that “Anonymous” (January 28, 2007 11:17 PM) refers to, I was in Japan with my wife. I was not present when it was announced that Bro Thom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship else
where, I was in Japan with my wife and our 3 young boys.
I have, however spoken with both Erwin and Bro Thom about what transpired and I agree that what Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17) wrote is what each of the two men told me. Erwin says he had no part in asking Thom to leave and Thom says he was willing to meet with the leadership, but
not under the conditions that were set.
Many attempted to get this situation straightened out, to no avail. It hurt the members beyond belief. I suggested that the ones with the responsibility to the membership (the residing leaders) should invite Thom to a public Wednesday night meeting and ask him to forgive them for the
mistakes they admitted to making. I suggested this to Erwin and Robert and they were not willing to consider it.
I love Bro Thom like a big brother. Did he make mistakes in this situation? Probably, but until there is a fair discussion we will never know. As an individual who was stripped of his authority Thom is unable to orchestrate the type of “town hall meeting” that should have happened, and still
needs to happen. Both the faithful Brady members that helped form this church, and the Mosaic members that keep it going, deserve to see their leaders live out the same kind of selfless Christ like behavior that we are called to.
Until the transition from one leader to the next can be dealt with in a fair and biblical way I do not believe there will be healing and a full blessing from God upon all of us.
Your brother in Christ,
Eddie Marshall
P.S. I understand that this blog is about a much larger issue. However, I believe that this is where it began and we need to go back to where we got off track and begin there.
January 29, 2007 7:41 PM
Anonymous said...
However, the reason that I grieve is because I know ---GOOD--- people who have been manipulated,
-REJECTED-, and -ABANDONED-.
January 29, 2007 11:24 PM
Anonymous said...
I have followed this blog for a bit and it makes me very sad. Mosaic is a community of faith that I strongly admire and look up to. I had the opportunity to serve at this community for two months and I grew in ways that I would never know were possible. Even though I know many of you
have been hurt, I dont think that a blog is necessary "to expose" whatever lies and manipulation you believe exists. There is no perfect church. Paul had problems with some of the churches, but he wrote letters to them directly addressing these issues. You have posted a myspace
page and a blog that the whole world can see. And in that you think you are helping people to stay away from this Church. One commenter said that it the point was to keep people who dont know Christ from coming to this church. Maybe many of you have been saved for a very long
time and cant quite remember what it is like to live with no faith, no hope and no love. It is the cause of Christ that you are giving a bad name to. I have family and many friends that dont know Christ. I wouldnt want them to see this blog because it would be just another reason why they
should not follow Christ. If Christ followers act like this, then why bother right? The rest of the world does it and we are no different. Even if you dont agree with Mosaic or their members, there is no need for a blog. Speak to them directly. Please stop hurting the Bride. She is already
bleeding and wounded. Dont cause her anymore pain.
"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the unexcusable in you." C.S. Lewis
January 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Anonymous said...
Amen!! Eddie Marshall, "where we got off track is where we need to GO BACK TOO" You cannot move forward on a track that has missing supports.
January 30, 2007 1:05 AM
Matt said...
Robbie,
I pray for you and for others who have experienced pain. I think you know I love you and want to see God continue to use your life. I am sorry that this is how you feel you need to use your energy and talents. I pray that God would bring healing and reconciliation, in many places. No
one is without fault. However, I don't see how this blog is the answer. I am also concerned by all the anonymous comments. I feel if people want to write, make accusations, give their stories, they should also use their names. It is hard to deal with issues not knowing who is involved. I
would love to talk. I will try to call you when my skype gets to working.
I know that there have been times when people have been asked to step down or not allowed to continue in a ministry area. I haven't always agreed with the decisions but I have felt that when the people really approached the leaders in humility and dealt with thing biblically, that there
was healing and restoration. I understand that others don't agree or feel that has happened (as evidenced by their posts) but that has been my experience. I can also say that on a personal level, Erwin has always been gracious, loving and desired the best for me. He has invested in
my life in so many ways to help me heal and become the person I am today. I know he isn't perfect. I see faults in him. But, I do believe he loves God, knows and faithfully interprets his word, and seeks to bring others into relationship with Jesus.
I would like to challenge everyone who posts here to take at least the same amount of time that they have taken to read and post on this blog to pray for Mosaic, its leaders and ask for God to be glorified. More will be accomplished in our prayers than in our blogs.
Matt Burtch
January 30, 2007 1:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Come on Matt,
Now you get involved? At who's request do you now decide to participate? Remember last year when I called you in tears about this situation looking for some sort of guidance? I'm still waiting for you to return my call.
David Torres.
January 30, 2007 2:20 PM
Yepiz said...
Oh Matt,
You said...I am also concerned by all the anonymous comments. I feel if people want to write, make accusations, give their stories, they should also use their names.
That's the biggest straw man I've ever encountered. What about those that are from Mosaic using anonymous?
I bet they do that because if people knew who they were, some of their own mishandlings of people would be exposed as well.
Eddie Marshall said it best. Stay on topic.
The only responses I have heard form the Borg...err...Mosaicites, is that we are "dividers, bitter, un-clear, evil, not doing God's work, agents of Satan," and so on.
Not one of you here has validated our experience without popping some Scripture to justify your wrongdoings, asking for fogiveness, or wanting to fully understand our pain.
This is exactly what all of us that have been hurt hav been saying throughout this entire blog!
Let's get something straight. We as Christians are not follow men blindly. We are to follow Christ.
Mosaicites will follow their leader, Erwin McManus, no matter what wrongs or sins he committs.
Somewhere, Ted Haggard is asking, "Why were these guys not on my staff?"
January 30, 2007 3:46 PM
Anonymous said...
Robbie,
I am addressing you. All these other responses are the indirect responses of your heart.
Your blog seemed so simple and from the heart. A victim. You knew exactly what fire you were going to ignite. The same fire that is fueling you; hurt, anger, and bitterness.
Why don’t you speak with who ever has hurt you? I am not going to quote God’s word to you. You know it. That is what pains me. I know God is not pleased by all this whole blog thing. I know He is sad.
Sad with Him,
Laura Oronoz
January 30, 2007 5:17 PM
Anonymous said...
Who are the lost sheep, or “who” is Jesus referring to when He gives us an example about the woman turning over her entire household for a misplaced coin? It is not the non-believer but rather the ones that have come into the fold and are now separated. Somehow, seemingly
because churches and their respective denominations can grow in numbers quicker, the holy grail of Evangelicalism in the 21st century has become winning the lost, even at the expense of ignoring or in some cases abusing the brethren.
An anonymous comment on here said, “Paul had problems with some of the churches, but he wrote letters to them directly addressing these issues. You have posted a myspace page and a blog that the whole world can see.” Umh, and those letters that Paul wrote ended up in the
greatest selling book of all time; THE BIBLE. I sort of think that book far outreaches all of bolgging and MySpace put together.
Oh my, let’s keep up the facade that, “All is well within Christianity. We can’t let the world know we have any problems.” Why not? As Christians we do not practice a faith that has no problems, we worship the God that can heal ALL problems. Sorry, but it isn’t about being perfect. It is about
confessing our sins and letting God forgive us of them and cleansing us from them.
Ephesians 5: 8-14
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is
shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
Should there be anything that we do in our churches that we need to hide from the world? Anything at all? Are we a cult? Do we have special ceremonies? Customs? Traditions? None. We live in the Light. Exposed for all to see. Of course we need to be considerate of each others
private lives, but when it comes to how the church as a body functions; we are public for all to see. What Christianity does completely different than any other group is be transparent, open and honest, when it is not…well, there must be something to “hide”.
Eddie Marshall
January 30, 2007 5:20 PM
Anonymous said...
Laura,
Do you understand my dad's heart?
Mosaic refuses to consider the fact that this is not about bitterness, because in doing so they open up the possibility that there is a greater evil that lurks in your congregation. Do you think God doesn't love us? Do you think we don't love God? Do you think we just woke up one day with
nothing to do? This is painful for my family but we must follow our convictions. You think we are attacking a church that is being defended by hundreds yet you have not seen the private attacks that we have received through mail that a family of five is enduring. The staff at mosaic knows
Robbie is a good man. They know he has always been wise and responsible with his words. They know he would not have written this blog unless he felt It was the right thing to do before God. I promise you that you are in the company of men and woman who have chosen to stay
quite so that your imagination leads you to think the worst of us. You are being led no doubt to believe that this is about Robbie’s personal issues but I promise you it goes way beyond one individual or even one small group.
David Torres
January 30, 2007 8:39 PM
loweyesah said...
After speaking with Robbie about this Blog. I know that he has thought long and hard about this blog and what is written here.
He has chosen his words wisely, and I think/hope that God will be vindicated in all of this.
The TRUTH stays the same lies are always changing...
David Torres, Eddie Marshall and Alex have said it well. This is not just about a man, it is about a system, an organization that was started by said man. It has cracks, it has flaws, and we all have flaws as well. But, we also know that we have tried to discuss these things/flaws with the
leadership at MOSAIC. I know that I have... I know that Robbie has as well. The time for closed door meetings is over. These things needed to be exposed, and they have.
I hope we all take the time to do a realistic-self appraisal of our lives. Just like Paul stated, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we
have not failed the test. Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. We are glad
whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection. " 2Cor13-5-ff
I love everyone who has posted here. I don't know people's hearts, but I know my heart, and know that it is evil. I know I had to examine myself before I wrote anything. Robbie has created a forum for us to finally speak up and share what really happened, not what MOSAIC/Erwin wanted
you to assume/presume happened.
-Frank Loaiza
frankloaiza@gmail.com
January 31, 2007 7:24 AM
Anonymous said...
Hello, I am a bit new to this and I'm tryng to get up to date. I was reading Aaron's post on MOP. Does anybody know why Robert Martinez was let go? Thanks.
sd
January 31, 2007 9:44 AM
Anonymous said...
Peeps,
I just stumbled onto this site while googling Mosaic. I recently started listening to the podcasts and I'm totally lovin' it! After reading all of this, I gotta say...okay! Enough already! We get it! You got hurt! You were sad. Now move on. When someone hurts me, I go to them. I man up! If they don't
want to face me, I man up! I make them. I'm a persistent bugger. I don't let years pass. This blog is full of people whinning about the past. Be a man...if someone hurt you, talk to them about it. Go to them. If everyone knows everyone on this page, call them or go to their house and sit their until
they finally agree to talk. You people just need to get into a ring and fight. Get all of your aggression out the old-fashion way. If you really believe Erwin and the Mosaic "movement" is evil, then do something about it other than smoking a bitter pipe and ranting about someone from the safety
of your office cubicles. Throw down! (And make sure someone videos it and puts it on YouTube. That would be awesome!) Now if you will excuse me, I had a close friend in the 4th grade tell me that I couldn't ride his bike because I was too fat, and I have to go and post a blog on my site
about how evil he is and how I'm not bitter. Feel free to stew over my email for 10 years and create a blog about me. I would be honored!
P.S. If you think Erwin is evil, and now want to get in the bed with the likes of Ken Silva...now you're really screwed! (You might want to get tested afterwards too.)
John Stewart
donebraugtsexyback@yahoo.com
January 31, 2007 11:43 AM
Ruben said...
Matt, Laura, others:
I’d be curious to read your response to these points: 1. Numerous posters have agreed with Robbie that there have been abuses of power in the Mosaic leadership. Are these other posters the result of “bitter” hearts, too? 2. If the claims are inaccurate, why has the Mosaic leadership
been mum about the claims? To me, it seems they are allowing the Body, both former and present members, to twist in the wind. 3. The purpose of the blog, and others like it, is not to pour the cup of bitterness like someone has written, but to prevent this kind of abuse and ousting of
dedicated leaders to continue. There is a concern that this will keep happening. To you, does this kind of concern emanate from ill motives?
January 31, 2007 12:28 PM
esp96 said...
Sd,
I think the question you asked could only be answered by the person who let my uncle go. I can give only speculation. However I will not do that because I am more concerned with telling the truth of the events that transpired.
Aaron
January 31, 2007 1:55 PM
andy said...
Today I sat down and typed "Robbie Sortino" in Google, just to see. Robbie, we only talked a few times while you were at Mosaic, but each time I came away encouraged. You were the one of a couple top leaders (most of the others quietly left before you) who I knew would listen,
respond, and help me on this journey. I'm still thankful for that. When I typed your name into Google, I was thinking maybe I'd send you an email and tell you so. Actually, I was going to recommend this book, Divine Nobodies, that I've been reading.
I have thought often about voicing my own concerns about Mosaic on the Internet. It's obviously not a simple or easy thing to do. Hearing these others at least helps me know I'm not alone.
One reason I haven't written about Mosaic is that I'm still a member, or "staff," though I'm in another country. Even when I was at Mosaic I led a life group, and that life group really defined my Mosaic experience. As Mosaic has turned more and more toward movement with an increasing
culture of control (which was there before Erwin left in my experience) I've remained attached through relationships with the members of our old life group.
Also, I feel the hesitance of people to give names and really appreciate those who have done that. I remember being at Mosaic on Sundays and, during the sermon, sometimes hearing examples of things people had complained about being pilloried by Erwin. That shocked me and
gave me second thoughts every time I thought about raising a concern myself.
I don't want to start writing things about Erwin. I still respect him and hope the best for him, but I don't really know him all that well.
I'll send you an email later Robbie if I can find your address.
January 31, 2007 5:54 PM
By the way, I personally don't have a big problem with Mosaic's theology, or with Erwin's theology. My only concern there are the "shoulds" and "oughts" lurking in the message. I don't think the solution at Mosaic is more conservative theology but more freedom in Christ.
On the other hand, I do question the methods and the driving passion for an image and movement -- a Mosaic movement. I think Mosaic is becoming more, not less of a religious system, and less able to lay down it's form and structure in response to what Jesus is doing. I don't think this
is obvious, because the talk and image say otherwise.
I don't write these things to tear down the people following Jesus who are part of Mosaic. I think if some structures and image created by Mosaic are threatened, then that's not a bad thing. As I have heard Erwin say many times, form submits to Spirit. We should always be ready to
discard structures. Unfortunately, the leaders at Mosaic seems to constantly rearranging (and making life difficult for some friends who run around picking up pieces) when perhaps it's time to tear out huge swaths of concrete and steel.
January 31, 2007 7:24 PM
doug said...
Robbie, blessings to you.
Several have informed me of this blog and I have taken the time to read many of the responses which have been pouring in. I am really not amazed by the volume of responses, truly I am not. I know there are many, many more who can be added to this number. I wasn’t going to add
anything of my own to the mix, however there was one entry I read for which I thought I might be able to contribute something of substance.
Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17), you said that you were there when Erwin took the reigns of leadership. I too was there on that occasion. You stated that you were also there the night we were all told that Brother Tom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship somewhere else. I was there as
well. You also said, “I do have questions that have bothered me for some time and I hope some of you will comment and shed some light on the subject.” Well, I don’t know if this is what you had in mind but if you have any questions regarding what was actually said during that
Wednesday night meeting in May, 1998, I might be able to help. I will not do it over a medium such as this, however. You can contact Frank Loaiza, who has listed his e-mail address elsewhere in these postings here. He will give you my e-mail address and you can contact me that way.
I also have a copy of the two-page handout distributed that night to all who were there; the handout being a copy of the text Erwin had written and had had e-mailed to all the missionaries we had in the field at that time, explaining the situation to them in his words.
Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17), you had also stated about that night that as Pastor Erwin dismissed us “he told us to feel free to ask any questions of him or the elders by submitting them in writing”. I remember that well. I took them at their word and wrote down numerous questions I had in a
letter, of which I sent to each elder a copy. To this date I have not received a response to any one of my questions from any of the four Elders then holding office (Erwin, Enrique, Rick, or Robert). This letter was written as an “open” letter. As it continues to lack response from any of those
individuals I would have no problem in sharing it if you feel it would serve you charitably. It is not hearsay. I took care in my documentation. The quotes I used came directly from their mouths on that night to which you referred. These were not private conversations being in need of
confirmation by two or three witnesses. They were publicly proclaimed to the church body by the elders themselves; so Matthew 18 does not apply. [Further note: This is not a secret. I did not hide my intent from the Elders when I submitted it to them as an “open” letter. So it will not be
taking them unawares should anyone refer it to them now.]
January 31, 2007 10:05 PM
Believing the Impossible... said...
Let me just start by saying that I’m glad I came across this site and I’m glad that other individuals have finally come together to expose the farce so blindly referred to as Mosaic Church.
I am a MOP survivor who left the church in 1999 well before most of the major deception occurred. Even as a child in Jr. and Sr. High I saw the direction the “church” was going in and I knew that something wasn’t right. I am very good at reading people, I am a keen observer, and I am
also a person who people confide in. From the first day that I met Erwin McManus I knew that he had ulterior motives, I knew that he was someone who would use his position to gain wealth, notoriety, and power rather than using his position to teach, train, and spread the gospel. I looked
into his eyes and saw through the façade. I was not fooled. Anyone who knows me can attest to the fact that I have long been predicting the day that Erwin would be exposed as the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing and the Mosaic organization would fall apart from within. Friends, I
believe that this day is near and we must continue to pray and be vigilant until the truth is finally revealed.
I believe that Erwin’s deceit began when he conned his way into the pastor-ship of the old Church on Brady. He led Pastor Wolf and the congregation to believe that he would build upon Pastor Wolf’s Legacy, not tear it down. As a result of this deceit the church elected to support Erwin’s
bid to succeed Pastor Wolf. Almost immediately Erwin began to consolidate his power, make decisions in dark smoke filled rooms about the future of the church, and strategically remove well respected and influential members from the church who he saw as threats to his power. This
created a great rift in the church which led to the exodus of nearly HALF of its membership who fled to other churches in the area including Gateway Community, Lake Avenue, Pasadena Nazarene, Calvary Chapel, and Faith Community Church. My family was one of the few who
stayed. We had been attending faithfully since the 80’s and became members in 1988 so my parents were not about to leave just yet.
The next big lie was the “Believing the Impossible” campaign. Erwin’s vision was to create a mega-church far away from the “ghetto” of East Los Angeles where the original Church on Brady was located. Erwin even confided to my father that he was not here to “minister to cholos” and
he expressed his desire to find another property as soon as possible. So Erwin had his musicians pen songs, he had his actors create plays, and he gave some motivational sermons touting the need to give and give generously to the Believing the Impossible Fund. He had church
goers commit to Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Annually, and/or Lump Sum contributions and he made sure to apply pressure on those unwilling to contribute. Believe or leave was the order of the day.
I know of one Nurse and his wife who gave THE ENTIRE DOWN PAYMENT THEY HAD SAVED UP FOR THEIR FIRST HOME to the campaign, my parents contributed nearly $30,000, and as a high school student, I contributed over $1000 as well. The campaign lasted for approximately
three years and hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of dollars were raised. Then came the real problems that led to my decision to leave Mosaic in 1999, my parents’ decision to leave in 2000, and my brother’s decision to leave in 2006. Where did all the money go???
There were no updates provided to the congregation as to how much money was raised, who was investing the money, how much money was coming in/out, or what properties the church was pursuing. Sure, we held church on some vacant properties here and there but there was
never any clear communication as to the direction the Believing the Impossible drive was going. Almost immediately after the Believing the Impossible campaign began, Erwin and his family purchased two new cars, moved into a mini-mansion in Uptown Whittier’s stately historical
district, and started to travel the country. I thought this spending spree was particularly interesting because Erwin had mentioned on multiple occasions in his sermons the need to sacrifice and put off big purchases in order to contribute the maximum amount to the Believing the
Impossible Campaign. There was even an Elder in the church (who worked as an investment manager) who purchased a Toyota Camry instead of a Lexus in order to donate the difference to the campaign.
To me Erwin’s acquisitions were very suspicious, but to those on Erwin’s Leadership team it was business as usual. After the spending spree the radical fundamental changes ensued. There was the name change from Church on Brady to Mosaic, there was the changing of the
church charter, the revision of the doctrine, a new mission statement, asking the former Pastor, Tom Wolf to leave the church, and asking respected Elders to Leave the church. There was also a shift in focus from cultivating, teaching, and growing the congregation to becoming a
church on the “cutting edge” in terms of technology, artistic expression, interpretive dance, and drama etc. All of these things came at the expense of ministry. As a result of this shift in focus the youth ministry, college ministry, singles ministry, family ministry, and the senior ministry
completely fell apart and were almost non-existent. There was a fairly good sized children’s ministry but there was a significant drop off in the high school ministry and non-existent college, singles, family, and senior ministries. This was all part of Erwin’s plan. His desire was to build a
base of wealthy young professionals who would be able to tithe a lot more than college students, working families, and senior citizens.
To that end he decided to move the church from its long time home in East LA to multiple sites. Thus, Mosaic Glendale, downtown, San Gabriel, Beverly Hills, and Pasadena were born (some locations are now defunct). Erwin strategically chose these locations because of the high
concentration of young professionals and people who work in the entertainment industry. These attendees would provide a base of financial support and would bring attention to Mosaic.
As a result of this decision, Erwin gained local, national, and international notoriety. He was interviewed frequently and many news reports and studies were conducted on this modern church. Erwin’s plan was finally coming to fruition. He started writing books, lecturing, and attending
special events. He was sought after as a quest speaker for many conventions and conferences. He was finally able to gain the power, notoriety, and financial success he had planned for and although he didn’t have a mega church he had the influence.
Did Erwin’s success come at a cost? The answer to that question is YES. You pay the cost and the cost is your spiritual well-being. From all appearances Erwin is not interested in helping you become a better Christian, he is not interested in helping you become stronger in your walk.
He is only interested in that which will increase the size of his power, influence, and bank account. It matters not whether you stay or go, so long as the tithe keeps coming in. There are no ministries to encourage you, train you, support you, or help you grow (unless you are into the
“arts”) and absolutely nothing for you if you are over the age of 55.
To this day Mosaic has not purchased a property. They continue to rent multiple locations in trendy areas around the LA area. There is no communication as to where the Believing the Impossible money went. The forced resignations and exodus of long time staff continues. No matter
what, through it all, Erwin remains all powerful.
If you are currently attending Mosaic I pray that your eyes would be open to what is going on. I pray that you would wake up and free yourself. I hope that you would move on to a church that desires to help you improve your life and your walk. It is my desire to help others understand
that we cannot support Erwin’s quest for greatness. As more and more people see the truth, more will leave the church. Hopefully this will send a message that the focus needs to be brought back to ministering to the individual and bringing the lost into the flock.
I leave you with this:
Rom 1:16-22
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,* just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
February 1, 2007 4:08 AM
Anonymous said...
I am a former member of Brady who served in the youth, college, and creative arts ministries from 1982 until 1993 when my wife and I left to help start another church. If memory serves me right, the transition to Erwin as Pastor happened about the same time we were starting to form the
church planting team. I know and love so many of those posting and those who have been posted about. As I have watched this blog grow, my emotions and thoughts have evolved as well. At first I was angry and felt hurt for those who have been injured. I was concerned that this would
backfire on Robbie who I know to be a man with a heart for God and did not see what good would come of it. Now what I see is an opportunity. We all know that Christ’s heart is toward unity as expressed in his prayer in John 17:22-23 “I have given them the glory that you gave me, that
they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
The opportunity I see is for reconciliation, healing, and unity. For those in leadership at Mosaic I ask that you humble yourselves and be reconciled to those who have been hurt. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something
against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." For those who have been hurt, be open to those who have hurt you and be quick to forgive.
I believe that if both sides seek complete reconciliation that God will move in ways beyond our comprehension. I believe God wants to bless Mosaic and those who have been hurt and is holding back part of that blessing until there is repentance and reconciliation.
With Much Love,
Bruce Welch
welchbru@aol.com
February 1, 2007 5:00 PM
Anonymous said...
FORGIVENESS
We are driving down the road, me at the wheel, you a passenger. I'm driving a little over the speed limit. It starts to rain, you say, "Maybe you should slow down." I do not. Instead I increase my speed out of stubbornness. When we come to a curve in the road the car we are riding in
spins out of control and slams into a tree. You awaken in a hospital bed in a full body cast. I am standing over your bed, a bandage on my head, tears welling up in my eyes. "Please forgive me, I was irresponsible and I have caused you pain." I say. You quietly pray, "Please God, give
me the strength to forgive this man for the pain he has caused me." He does. "I forgive you." you say. I smile, wipe the tears from my eyes and thank you for your understanding. After a few niceties I walk out of the room; where you lay in the hospital bed with your full body cast and a
strong feeling of God's grace and presence in your life. It truly does feel good to let go of bitterness and forgive. A couple of weeks go by and you hear that I had another accident, this time I am dead and my passenger, along with me. Why didn't you hold me accountable? Why did you
assume that "forgiveness" removed the responsibility you have to warn others about my bad behavior, and why didn't you see that behavior as dangerous to others as well? Forgiveness is just one half of the equation to healing and restoration when one person hurts another.
“Forgiveness” is when we lovingly, with patience and understanding, call those into accountability who have hurt us or others. Through our forgiveness, God can use us to help people change and become better as we hold them responsible for their actions.
Eddie Marshall
February 1, 2007 7:04 PM
Andy said...
I was thinking about this, and I decided to write one more comment. I just want to encourage everyone writing and reading here to move forward toward Jesus whatever it takes. I truly don't believe Jesus has been diminished even when trust has been broken by people or a religious
system.
Robbie, you have taken such incredible hits. The only words I can think of to say are probably not things I should write down. I can't feel your pain, but I'm angry that someone I care about who doesn't seem to deserve it hurts. If outing the brokenness in Mosaic somehow helps you
move forward with Jesus again, then so be it. Good or bad, I know God can use this. But if this isn't what Jesus is doing, or when it ceases to be that, then I hope you'll let it go. I just want you to find hope in Jesus and be able to trust again. The Jesus I know is much bigger than Mosaic and
so much more capable than I am to solve the hurt.
Anyway, if you want to exchange emails than follow my link and get in touch. I don't know how to contact you, so... Peace.
February 2, 2007 4:12 AM
Anonymous said...
Bruce,
Thank you. Your post really expressed some of the changing emotions that I have felt in reading this blog. My heart especially resonated with your thought that we now have an opportunity. An opportunity for reconciliation, healing and unity that would powerfully and more fully release
the blessings of God in all our lives.
I am joining you and many others in wholeheartedly praying toward this end.
For His glory,
Wade Harlan
oppty@mail.com
February 2, 2007 9:55 AM
MOPmember said...
Having read every comment on this blog, I feel comfortable to ask if there should be an investigation of Mosaic and its leaders? Sure there should be prayer and all, but there are a couple of very serious allegations here. Misappropriation of funds by a non-profit organization, not to say
the least. If that is true then we are talking criminal offenses, if it is not true then the record should be set straight and the claims revealed to be false. Either way, something more than just praying about it needs to occur.
February 2, 2007 12:24 PM
Anonymous said...
MOP member may be correct in his comment about investigation. Was this why Robert was asked to resign? Why did Robert resign? If it has to do with finances someone needs to speak up. I know that Mosaic has many members, but no "church" and a lot of my and other's money
went to "Believing the Impossible" And I can't believe Mosic is still without a home. In the business world you would be liable.And in God's family we would expect to be compensated times 7. Shouldn't the church be better?
February 2, 2007 5:54 PM
esp96 said...
This is to the February 2, 2007 5:54 PM Anonymous. You’re connecting dots from random questions. Questions that need to be answered, and are warranted.
However, let me set the record straight. My uncle Robert was not asked to resign, let alone asked to resign due to financial matters. I’ve talked about him here, and have said he was forced to retire. He was stripped of many of his responsibilities, and was placed in a vulnerable position
when posed with the notion of retiring. The manner in which it was done bares the same resemblance to the manipulation techniques described elsewhere on this blog and others. And for the record, they initially didn’t want to give him any compensation for his many years of service.
I hope I cleared up any misconceptions.
February 2, 2007 7:40 PM
Anonymous said...
Where is the Apostle Paul when you need him?
Well, of course Paul is with Christ in glory but his God-breathed epistles live on...
How would Paul deal with this? Good question because he has already given us the Biblical response to "leader's gone wild".
1) He publically challenged them and called out their error.
2) He warned the Churches by giving names of apostates and for the elders to rebuke them by the Word. 3) He pointed out their sure end and destruction as a warning and confirmation when it happened.
4) He knew and taught about the characteristics of "leader's gone wild":
*they don't honor the cross of Christ (where's the Gospel in it's fullness when they teach).
*what is their appetite for? (self-promotion, greed, ego, etc..or for the glory of Christ and Christ alone).
*what do they set their mind on? (earthly things or heavenly things)
*do they feed and protect the flock of Christ?
Paul would lead the charge to clean and purge this blot in the church. Where are the Paul's of our day? Where are the leader's who will stand with Paul in his spirit of zeal for Christ and His Church? The flock of God must be protected from the likes of wordly men.
Rise up, O men of God! Have done with lesser things;
Give heart and mind and soul and strength To serve the King of kings.
Rise up, O men of God! His kingdom tarries long;
Bring in the day of brotherhood And end the night of wrong.
Rise up O men of God! The church for you doth wait, Her strength unequal to her task; Rise up, and make her great!
Lift high the cross of Christ! Tread where His feet have trod; As brothers of the Son of man, Rise up, O men of God!
Now, if you don't mind, I must get a cup of coffee...sugar and cream of course.
Ed
February 2, 2007 10:20 PM
wondering said...
Mission is Why the church Exists
If you are at Mosaic very often you will hear the phrase over and over again that “Mission is why the church exists.” This makes sense, but what is that mission? It would seem from Mosaic’s perspective that mission means reaching lost people. And as noble as that sound, I would ask,
“Is reaching lost people the ONLY mission of the church? The parable of the lost sheep where the shepherd leaves the 99 to search for the 1 is used repeatedly by Mosaic to support the fact that the church should only focus on evangelism. But is that true? Did God intend for the
church to be more than just an evangelistic machine?
I wonder what Jesus had in mind when he said that we should make disciples and teach them to observe all that He had commanded. Was evangelism ALL that he had commanded? For example, Paul in Timothy says, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
What is training in righteousness? How does Mosaic train its members in righteousness. It seems that Mosaic’s philosophy is that if you are trying to win the lost then your own life will some how automatically come together. It has been inferred that as you are out winning the lost, you get
on the job training related to your own walk with God. I don’t know about you, but my inspiration for winning the lost comes from growing closer to God. For me it is closeness to God the results in sharing my faith. It is not, “Sharing my faith results in closeness to God.” My relationship with
God drives my evangelistic spirit. My evangelistic spirit does not drive my relationship to God. Does that make sense? The more I am in His word and learning about Him, the more inspired I am to share Him with others. In my experience motivation for winning the lost comes as I am
trained in righteousness and as my life comes together through the power of God’s Word, then that gives me a wonderful platform upon which to share the Gospel with others. In my opinion Mosaic has envisioned most believers as being spiritual gluttons who only grow fat and do not
use what they have learned to make a difference in the lives of others. So in what seems to be an over reaction, Mosaic in my opinion does very little training and equipping of its individual members and places almost all its efforts on telling them that they should be out winning the lost. If I
am correct, I would have to say that this is not well balanced theology. Believers are told that they should be able to “Feed themselves” and should not look to the pastor or any of the staff to feed them. I wonder why, Jesus told Peter in John’s Gopsel, “If You love me then feed my sheep,
tend my lambs.” If as Mosaic says, it is not the pastor’s job to strengthen the sheep for the work of service then what is his role? In Psalms 23, doesn’t David say that the Lord as a shepherd, leads him by still water and makes him to lie down in green pasture? Isn’t the symbolism there,
that the shepherd is caring for the needs of the sheep? No it does not end there of course! Cared for sheep should be reproducing and making more sheep. Have you ever heard of a Shepard who would tell his flock, “You should care for yourself, You should feed yourself, and your
total focus should be on reproducing.” Does that make sense or am I missing something?
I agree that Mission is why the church exists, but I believe that the Mission incorporates much more that just winning the lost. To say that God cares for those who are lost is absolutely true! To say that he cares for the lost more than he cares for those who are already saved is
absolutely false!
Does the Mission of the Church also include building itself up in love? Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the
edifying of itself in love. Didn’t Jesus say, “By this will all men know you are my disciples, because of your love for one another,” was He talking about love for only non-believers or love within the body itself? If he was talking about Love within the members of the church, then I would
ask, how can members of the church feel loved when the message seems to be “Investing in you is not important, as a matter of fact it is selfish, Your emphasis should only and always be on reaching the lost.” As important as winning the lost is, I would ask again is that the “Only Mission
of the Church.” Why has God made love within the church such an apparent theme. Do saints have needs? Can you think of ways that Mosaic reaches out to the needs within the body? I am asking sincerely, because I don’t know of any structures that are in place to do that.
Mission is why the church exists according to Mosaic, but what exactly does that mission look like according to the totality of Scripture?
February 3, 2007 7:56 AM
Andy said...
I commented here to stand by Robbie and others who believe they have been hurt, unheard, discarded, etc. My intention was/is not to attack the leadership of Mosaic but out of desire for reconciliation between people I respect, realizing that getting at the truth is (obviously at this point)
messy.
I understand there are people here who have issues with the theology of Mosaic. Please consider taking those comments somewhere else. Robbie did not start that discussion, and I don't think it's fair to him or others commenting here to change the topic. On the other hand, if Robbie
has theological issues with Mosaic, then maybe he can write a separate post about that...?
Again, I don't want to debate theology here but focus on the damaged relationships and, ultimately, the hope for reconciliation.
February 3, 2007 8:51 PM
Anonymous said...
Andy, we do want to discuss Mosaic "theology" etc...after all this blog is called, "Discovering Truth".
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Churchill
Sunday, January 21, 2007
A Mosaic of Silent Sorrows
I am filled with a heavy heart as I sit down to write this. For many years I invested my life into a group of people that I came to love, and believed they loved me. That group was said to be a place where the many become one . A place where people could belong. A group that states it
wants: “To be known by love”. Yet, over the years, as I have met people, the mention of this organization often times stirs up fear, hurt, disillusionment, and even rage. As a person who had a significant role in this group, myself along with other leaders, passionately embraced the name
for this organization, because we thought that it would personify the image of what “Church” should be - a place where the broken can find healing. Instead, under the leadership of the pastor and his team, too often they have inflicted emotional and spiritual wounds; leaving people to
fend for themselves. I have agonized over writing this, because I am grateful for the way that this collection of people invested in my life as a Christian, and I have not wanted anyone to misunderstand my sorrow, confusing it to be bitterness. However, the reason that I grieve is because I
know good people who have been manipulated, rejected, and abandoned. I have done, what far too many have done over the past years, when it comes to their negative experience with this organization - nothing. In the past, I chose to be silent about a place that emotionally abuses
people in the name of the Church. I was led to believe that it was wrong to ask questions about the actions of its leaders. I was told that I would be considered an ungrateful, rebellious, or a bitter person. It upsets me to think that there are still individuals who are being treated in this
manner. For example, I have talked to many people who were readily embraced for their talents, yet were quickly discarded when they were no longer of use. I am grieved to realize now that I naively participated in, and sat by watching, as good brothers and sisters were emotionally
broken for the benefit of this group. It deeply concerns me to think that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people, that this group influences. I invite you to respond to this blog. There are many good people who are unaware or unwilling to recognize the abuses that have occured,
and continue to occur, in this organization. Please share your personal experiences concerning this group here (with respect and all honesty).
Posted by Robbie Sortino at 10:57 PM
71 comments:
Yepiz said...
Let me begin by saying, "welcome to the nerdy life of Blogging.
Bro, I feel you, relate, and completely understand.
As someone on their list, I guess I have a lot to say. You have always been, and will be my mentor and friend.
Thank you for helping me and my wife when no one at this institution would.
Thank you for teaching me what it really means to "be known by love."
Man, I can keep writing on this all day. But i would just write a novel here.
January 23, 2007 10:18 AM
ESP96 said...
I have to say, That I completely agree with you. I have seen and heard first hand what is going on there. My uncle is being phased out of leadership to bring in others, who do as you stated...dont ask questions. Its very disturbing and I'm glad you've wrote this. It all kind of reminds me of
the Star Wars saga from the beginning.
-A. Y.
January 23, 2007 11:13 AM
pableezy said...
ah, where do i begin?
i'll post stories later, but for now, i just want to voice my support for what you are doing.
i have been out of the MOP for a LONG time now. but i can tell you that some scars still remain, and that i'm not the only one. i know plenty of people that left the MOP many years ago and are still very damaged by the experiences they had. i know others that continue to go even though
they loathe it because of the power of fear and guilt.
from the MOP i learned how to run a business. from the bible, i had to relearn how to be a part of a community of faith.
so i'm down to speak truth here and share our experiences. after all, we should only fear truth if we have something to hide.
January 23, 2007 11:55 AM
loweyesah said...
Thanks Robbie. I whole Heartedly Agree with you.
-Frank Loaiza
January 23, 2007 3:20 PM
my2sense said...
Hi,
I too was a victim of the manipulation of this church. Pastor Irwin is a phoney, and I should have let every friend I know of that fact. Instead, I left quietly with my family. Not to say that I didn't let him have it personally. We had a 3 hour "conversation" one day after service. I just didn't want to
hurt the flock by exposing him. Boy, what a mistake. This guy just keeps getting bigger and more dangerous. You'd think from the articles I've read recently, that he's the second coming.
He's basically selling ancient mysticism wrapped in Christianity. This seems to be the trend in some churches. A watered-down version of the Gospel. Mosaic seems to have become a cult, or at least has the potential to be one.
I'm all for reaching out to the post-modern world. I just think that we should reach out with truth.
Keep your head up Robbie. God knows what you've been through. And He cares and loves you.
Peace be with you.
January 23, 2007 4:26 PM
pableezy said...
yo, i had a great youth pastor at the MOP. :)
shoot, i still find myself using his little sayings from time to time....
January 23, 2007 4:59 PM
trazomfreak said...
Thank you for this.
For some reason, the private hell that I've experienced was thought of as rebellion. But now as things are 'in the light' I now know it wasn't me.
And you, you've always been you. Real. And people saw that immediately. It is such a contrast to what Alex & I experienced as things "spiraled" out of control with the Mosaic of Pain. We were not only slapped in the face BUT we were also kicked out on our arses. Thank you for being
you because when things were "down" we always knew where you stood.
Robbie...for years, I knew THIS was coming. I couldn't wait! I'm so glad that God has spoken through you to finally get this out. And since we've all been a victim...all I can say is...it's in God's hands!
Thank you. ♥
January 23, 2007 11:20 PM
Yepiz said...
Ok, I can now give a more detail response.
I too have seen way too many God fearing Christians hurt by this "movement." I can say that this is more a movemnet of pain than a movement for Christ.
So what do I want?
I want Erwin mcManus to humble himself before a public audience and acknowledge and repent for the hundreds/thousands of individuals he has hurt, misused, and hurt.
I also believe that he should step down.
Just so you know, I have written to the Southern Baptist Convention and have requested their assistance. I'm not sure if they will help. But it's a start into this battle.
My wife and I went through a hell that no married couple should have to expereince on their first two years of marriage.
All for the sake of the "movement."
Pableezy said it best one time:
"they are like the Borg in the mother ship who come in and assimilate you into the collective."
Sounds like something from Jung Psychology.
Mosaic had more than ample time to "fix" these issues. Now, god has put us in a place where he will use our lives to stop a "movement" that obviously is falling short of being "known by love."
Let the commencement of the Truth behind this man, and his movement, take place. let the world see Erwin's Mysticism and relativism theology come to light. Let us expose his ties to the McLarens, Pagitt's, and Campolo's begin.
Robbie, you have began something that many of us have been to afrid to begin. A counter-revolution for true meaning of the church to "Look after his sheep."
Amen.
January 24, 2007 1:33 AM
Anonymous said...
It is unfortunate that a vibrant and loving group like Brady had to be sacrificed in order that an aggressive and pain inflicting group like Mosaic could spawn.
The first group never claimed to be perfect, while the latter will never deny being power hungry and set on winning at all costs.
January 24, 2007 1:49 AM
Joser said...
I really believe this will let alot of you heal. Praise God for you Robbie opening up. Again let the healing begin.
January 24, 2007 1:55 AM
pableezy said...
here is one story - a small one:
i was playing with the worship band when wed. night lord supper was still going on. this was like 1997 or so (just to give a throwback and help people see that this stuff has gone on for a long time).
erwin came up to me about 10-15 minutes before the service was supposed to start. he told me that someone had informed him that i was not an official member of mosaic. i said "what's that?" since i had never heard of membership. he briefly explained that a member tithes, is committed
to the community, etc. i told him that i already did all of those things and that i was very committed (which i was). that wasn't enough. he asked me to verbally committ to membership. i told him no because i still didn't understand what that meant. so he said that i couldn't play bass with the
band that night, and not at all until i became a member. now, this was like 5 min to start, so i told him whatever and went to tell gary (the worship leader at the time) what was up.
i can't really describe in words the feeling that i got that day. he was attempting to manipulate me into agreeing to something i didn't even know anything about. furthermore, he used the music as leverage to get me to agree. i was 19, maybe. i hadn't been a christian for even 2 years at the
time and had NO idea what the heck membership was. he was in complete manipulation mode and it really bothered me. to me, it showed me something about him and the way he deals with people.
the church is not a business. it is a family. that's not how you deal with family...
more later...
January 24, 2007 8:43 AM
Cory Murman said...
I'm just curious as to the origination of your pain. What happened at "MOP"? I used to attend regularly, but I stopped going in order to pursue some opportunities to serve in a church closer to home. Still, I never felt such deep hurt towards "MOP" to warrant a condemnation of their
leadership. I didn't agree with everything they did, but I don't have to agree with every Christian on every issue. Please let your readers know exactly what happened.
January 24, 2007 9:58 AM
Yepiz said...
Cory,
This is not about some disgruntled ex-memebres of Mosaic. it is about much more than that.
All of us here will agree with you that every Church is not perfect and that it impossible to please everyone. as a former youth pastor myself, I understand this better than most.
No, we are here to expose the many times this congregation, with the leadership of McManus, they have hurt individuals or left them to "fend for themselves."
We fully understand that Erwin's intentions may have been good ones. However, after hundreds, or even thousands of people being hurt, we have all decided that enough is enough.
God's Church is not to be a place where people are exploited for their talents until they have no further use by McManus, or his "movement."
As Pableezy said, "the Church is family." Too many people have been used for their talents. then when they see something better, they shove you aside and leave you. If you speak openly and publicly, as I have, you are branded and black listed as "Rebellious, bitter, and un-
understanding."
In my opinion, this is no different than a cult.
How can sit back and let others go through what I went through? This is exactly what Robbie has had to battle within himself and why many of us applaude what we were too unwilling to do.
Again, Erwin's initial intentions may have been good. However, the way they are functioning, in my opinion, is evil.
January 24, 2007 6:12 PM
Anonymous said...
Let's define some terms. A "cult" is a group that takes God's Word, the grace offered through Jesus and adds anything else to that to qualify our santification. I do not think Mosaic is a cult, nor do they make evil choices with the intention of being evil. However, there is a might and power
approach in this groups mentality. This, in and of itself, is contrary to how God desires us to exist as His Church. e.g. 'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty. [Zechariah 4:6]
January 24, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 24, 2007 10:30 PM
pableezy said...
anon said: I would encourage everyone to use this forum not to reopen old wounds, but to use it to encourage each other in our walk. Let's leave Erwin and the past behind.
for the most part, i have. i can't speak for others, but even having done that, i still feel this is a worthwhile cause. first of all, some people were deeper hurt than others. some have not dealt with it completely. this is a textbook method of dealing with pain; speaking about it.
but this is twofold in my opinion. those that wanted to speak and heal could have done that in a closed room.
why then the public blog?
because others should hear about what is happening. others should realize that the facade is not the reality, and that behind the closed doors, there is much deception and manipulation of the truth happening.
i recall being in the room when they told us that gary was leaving brady/mosaic. i was in the room when they announced bro thom was leaving. if we want to talk deception, we can start right there and fill this blog till 2008.
what about robert martinez? i'm sure the whole congregation feels all warm and fuzzy about the nice old elder retiring.
please, you insult your family when you lie to their face like that.
January 25, 2007 7:59 AM
Oncoming Traffic said...
To “honestly can't remember”,
This is not about a lack of faith of what God is able to do apart from us. I’ve often asked why so many times we think God is going to act in a situation where we are not willing to act. People identify that there is a problem then expect God to solve it on his own.
You’re words seem to be hiding contradictions. It almost seems you’re saying that the hurt that mosaic has inflicted was allowed to happen so that we can become better people. I guess if that is the case we should be thanking mosaic for the lesson of forgiveness and healing. However
I do not believe that we are the center of this situation. It is not all about us. You obvious admit mosaic is unhealthy yet it seems you feel the problem will just go away if we find a better church and put it out of our heads. It does not seem to be that it is even an issue for you that there are still
people continuing to be hurt by the same place that hurt you.
Every time I hear or read someone talk about how we as christians should forgive and just move on I can’t help to feel that their perspective is of a selfish nature. Once again, it is not all about us. Yes we need to forgive but what does that look like? Why have the words “forgive” and
“bitterness” become such powerful tools for manipulation? It seems people have tagged new attributes to what forgiveness looks like which control peoples willingness to act in difficult and unpopular situations. Though on the surface your words seems to be noble, the heart of what
you are saying is surrounded by self-centered needs. If Christ had followed your system of tackling problems he would have never been crucified on our behalf. Christ would have just done the popular and pleasant thing and walked away from the whole thing when Pilot gave him the
opportunity.
Yes God brings healing but he brings it with hopes that we will help others.
I image God grieves when he watches us go threw difficult situations, overcome them, then move on and do nothing to solve the original situation that is still hurting others.
God is in control this I agree with, so if he just wanted us to be at a place of peace why didn't he help us avoid the separate difficulties we faced at mosaic in the first place? When I am tempted so often to stay quiet and forget about mosaic I feel that I am somehow disappointing God. Christ
was crucified to create the church yet we struggle with acting on our convictions to protect it. Just imagine what Christ went through in the garden of Gethsemane yet he did the right thing.
It seems you have used the vulnerable and honest comments before yours to make yourself look noble. I think the noble thing that is really being done hear is that of those who are willing to speak truth even at the risk that they will be insulted.
You might see it as people reopening old wounds, but really what is taking place is an attempt to stop the blade that continues to inflicted new ones on others. What I am seeing from these people is not that they have not forgiven or healed but rather that they are trying to stop a pattern.
Hopefully the need for forgiveness and healing as far as mosaic is concerned will become less and less necessary.
January 25, 2007 11:36 AM
Anonymous said...
If a group or individual hurts someone we love, as Christians we are called to forgive that group or individual. That does not mean we are suppose to forget our civic responsibility. Take for instance a murderer or child molester attacks your child or family member. Should we forgive
that individual? With God's grace, yes. Should we tell the courts, "Forget it, don't conduct a trial to determine their guilt and punishment. I have forgiven them." What about the others they will most certainly injure if they are not held accountable? Unfortunately, it is the same case with
Mosaic. If this group is "using" God's people and discarding them, the way that many of us have experienced, then we all have a responsibility to call Mosaic to a position of accountability.
January 25, 2007 12:25 PM
Anonymous said...
I don't think that's just a problem with Mosaic, but a problem with many churches in general and why so many come to leave churches, or even worse : wind up despising that religion they once held so dearly possibly losing salvation with a change of mindset.
I count myself fortunate for still believing in my Savior, reading my Bible, praying, and still continue in a search for a church of people whom do not pass judgment, and who can really sit and look at things with reason and not make excuses or quote scripture and bend it to their own
context. People who just want to worship, and be loved.
There were many people I admired from Brady, and even Mosaic. I saw some hopeful peoples talents used, and of course discarded for various reasons. While you feel you may have participated in this Robbie I can say that personally I feel that you were an outstanding mentor for the
short time I talked with you and always found you to be someone seeking the truth and a person I could feel comfortable going to for anything knowing I would not get the short end of the stick so to speak. It's too bad that more of the leaders weren't of that caliber.
As I've branched out to other churches and talked to other people it seems Mosaic has become well known in the church community as a place not many people like. Which I find quite saddening, there's already enough division between those who study the bible without needing any
more. One wonders if people can just come to a point where they can agree to disagree but just agree on the one important part that binds us all.
I don't think I have any contact with a single Mosaic member anymore, mostly by choice even though I miss some of them dearly. I did not want to get sucked back in to that which I felt was not wholly good for me and my development. I was eager to please, but not ready for that which
was entailed. Instead of letting me build up to it the rise and fall did not help me much at all. Not to mention my own sins which did a number on my startling realization that even I was not what I had thought. We're only as strong as the whole.
In the end, we're just a bunch of people with flaws looking for a place to call home that isn't in this world.
-J.C.
PR 25:16
January 25, 2007 12:52 PM
Robbie Sortino said...
As the site administrator I was asked by the original writer "Anonymous", who posted on January 24, 2007 at 10:30pm to remove their post, which I have.
January 25, 2007 9:28 PM
Anonymous said...
Here's a strange one. We were missionaries with SBC/Mosaic. While preparing to return to the field, God sent some 17-22 year olds our way. To be honest, I wasn’t too excited about this “inconvenience” since we were in the middle of packing our lives up for the field, with a newborn,
no less. Just the same, God moved and nearly a dozen came to Christ in a few weeks, all from a weekly impromptu Bible study. Knowing that we needed to plug them into a body of believers before leaving the country my wife and I took them to Mosaic a few times. Erwin wasn’t exactly
interested. I assume it was because they did not get saved via an official Mosaic event. Mind you, they all wanted to plug into a church. As a matter of fact, a few of them were baptized at Mosaic – that was strange, too. On the big day (this is just dawning on me how strange that moment
was) there was nobody in the baptismal rooms to perform the ceremonies! It ended up that I was asked to put on a robe and do the honors. Thank God that He is in charge. Even though none of those dynamic and excited new Believers were welcome at Mosaic, they all continued on
with their walks; plugging into different churches. A few of them are serving either in ministry or on the mission field today.
January 25, 2007 11:45 PM
pableezy said...
i'll give you the abrisged version of the fall of the college ministry when i was there.
for a while we had heard erwin talk about how the college students were the future leaders blah blah blah. i agreed, but their actions didn't follow.
there was a huge gap between the college ministry and the leadership of the church. for whatever reason, we weren't plugged in very well. we had very little encouragement or support really from the man that kept saying that we were the future. we were kinda on our own.
we even shared a whopping budget of $2G's with another ministry (ironically led by the administrator of this blog, who spent most of the money before we even knew it existed. LOL, I ain't mad at you Robbie!) so we ended up bankrolling it ourselves.
but we were working hard and excited. we had a great leader at the helm (greg soo hoo) and he was doing his thing. we had committed small group leaders that were great. we were happy, we were growing (significantly!) and that era of college ministry was, to this day, one of the most
alive and growing ministries i have been a part of.
several years down the road, we were growing weary of all of the stuff that was going on around us. we started asking questions. we started voicing discontentment.
shortly after that came the "violent overthrow" as i like to call it. they removed greg from our leadership position and forced another dude on us that none of us particularly liked...but Erwin did! he had a close relationship with him and wanted him to lead this ministry instead of greg, who
was doing an amazing job and had been the only one that was willing to go to bat with us before this point!
he came in, changed and restructured everything...and succeeded in killing that ministry within the year.
welcome to the power plays of the MOP.
January 26, 2007 8:40 AM
Gary Natisch said...
Robbie & Others posting here,
With all do respect this sounds like a lot of whining to me. You and I have never met personally, however when everything took place with your marriage that caused you to leave Mosaic, many people that I know tried to surround you and you refused their company on numerous
occasions. In all fairness I don’t know if Erwin tried directly but does that really matter? I think it’s absurd that how many people think that Erwin needs to come to the rescue every time something bad happens in our life. The only one we should ever rely 100% on is God. I think we
sometimes forget that our Pastors are people too with flaws, sins and temptations just as all of us are. Erwin is just one person and his main focus is to get the Gospel out to those who don’t have it. I have been a member of Mosaic since 2001; however I have attended off and on since
1975. In all of my time at Mosaic I have spoken to Erwin maybe five times, three of which probably consisted all of “Hey Bro”, and here’s that catch, I head up the Men’s Ministry at Mosaic. I mention all this because I am not interested in building a relationship with Erwin (no offensive Erwin)
because he already knows Jesus. I am more interested in getting to know those that do not know Christ and when hardship falls on me (which it has) I rely on God and the Mosaic community as a whole and not on any “one man” knowing that all things good or bad are done for God’s
purpose. Final thought, rather then grabbing pitch forks, torches and spending time building blogs and MySpace accounts trying to scar a community such as Mosaic or any Bible believing church (which all have flaws) shouldn’t you be investing the little time we have on this Earth in
people who may never know Jesus unless through you? Don’t tear down, build up, as long as the Gospel is being preached does it matter what our personal feelings are?
Robbie, I pray for you and your family. I also pray that if Mosaic or Erwin has hurt you that you find it in your heart to forgive us and him.
Strength & Honor,
Gary
January 26, 2007 10:31 AM
Anonymous said...
The problem is even worse than we thought! Pain at Mosaic? Sadly, sometimes! It is truly everywhere we look sometimes. The worst thing of all is that not only does Mosaic have pain, but the entire world and even cosmos has pain! The scenario darkens as even each one of us
carries pain inside ourselves!!!!
Yes, each of us is either the inflictor of the pain or the recipient of it. This is why Mosaic and the world have pain, because it is first in us as individuals!!! Oh, the pain I have felt in my own life. But also, OHHHH the joy! Oh the triumph in Christ! Oh the Victory! The Hope eats away at my pain.
The unspeakable Love!!! I love you. I love you so much it hurts! Oh how I lament your pain! The pain I carry today is because you hurt! I love you! I love you! I'm quiet and reserved. I don't always know how to say it. Our paths may never cross again. But I love you.
Please hear me. I wish you joy, happiness, comfort, peace, and love! God bless you in the name of Jesus--may his face shine upon you! And as for Mosaic? I love Mosaic!
Debbie B.
January 26, 2007 10:34 AM
Anonymous said...
Robbie,
After reading your blog, I was grieved to hear of your pain. We have been through a great deal of tough times together over the years, but we had some great moments as well.
Just as you are, I am filled with sorrow. You are right in that the church has had a lot of unhealthy patterns to overcome. All churches are filled with broken people and flawed leaders. As you know we have been working hard to create a community that is loving, kind, and authentic - a
community focused on helping people experience and discover a genuine relationship with God through Christ. You were a big part of helping us to try and change things and attempt to create health and genuine community.
We will never be perfect as a community nor will we meet every need or lead without making mistakes. For years, Erwin has reminded us of the importance of serving each other and depending on the Lord, especially when we face difficult times. Every time that we meet as a community
at Mosaic and celebrate the Lord's Supper, we also commission new volunteer staff. We are recruiting, equipping, and mobilizing new pastors and new ministers to help meet the needs of people throughout the city and within our community. Erwin cannot and should not be the only one
to be there for us. There are too many needs to be met, and he is human like the rest of us. However, when we look to Christ and as a community lose our lives in serving others, remarkable and miraculous things happen!
In the Scriptures, Jesus clearly states we are to approach our brother when we are offended and to be careful about accusations (Matthew 18:15-17, Titus 3:2). I was surprised you would email people you do not know and publish your accusations online rather than follow the path of
Jesus. In another passage, Jesus challenges us to go to the brother we have offended (Matthew 5:23-24). I am writing to ask that you would meet with me or meet with Erwin. In the past, you had mentioned this was unnecessary, but we can never learn from any mistakes we may have
made without a chance to hear from you in person why you have come to these conclusions. The enemy would love nothing more than to divide or at least distract us.
We miss you, and we love you, Robbie.
Praying,
Eric
eric@mosaic.org
562 908 2200 ext. 116
January 26, 2007 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 26, 2007 7:18 PM
MOPmember said...
I don't think this is about an individual...it's the G R O U P. As the leader goes, so goes the group. Like all too many churches, Mosaic needs to control it's people, and if possible they want to control all others too. Quoting scripture to try and make their point. Personal attacks, etc...
January 26, 2007 9:09 PM
Oncoming Traffic said...
Carrie,
You might be saddened by this website, but I am saddened by the need for it. Please point out what you define as slander, and show us what words on this page meet that definition. There are children who have been affected by the carelessness of mosaic, do they not matter because
they are believers? Mosaic is talented at using scripture to control and create fear in people, yet scripture holds little value when it comes to being relevant to culture.
You talk about forgiving, but exactly what is it we
need to forgive? Is this in a way you admitting that mosaic has wronged people? I have no choice, but to think that it is because you can’t forgive unless there has been sin. So, therefore, you as a staff member’s wife, are saying that these people are right and that wrong has been done
to them by mosaic, right?
You mentioned Robbie’s name as though he is leading this, but I promise you he is not. This is not being lead by one, but this is being lead by the convictions of many. I will not be controlled by manipulation, but by the conviction that God has placed in my heart.
January 26, 2007 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...
why address this topic here? cuz' a church that tries to put "gag-orders" on their ousted leaders will not allow an in-house discussion to occur. hopefully non-christians will stumble in here and avoid places like mosaic. go to a place that you will be loved unconditionally - with zero
reservation. a place that practices what it preaches. you go oncoming traffic! I could not have said it better...
January 26, 2007 10:52 PM
Yepiz said...
Gary said...I think it’s absurd that how many people think that Erwin needs to come to the rescue every time something bad happens in our life.
Well, you obviously don't know Robbie.
This guy was one of Erwin's right hand guys. You know, the guy that began Urban Mosaic and Erwin took the credit. The guy that had the vision to start a Church in Pasadena and Erwin came (CEO like) and dismantled it's leadership and created another service he could speak at or
promote his next book.
Also, the fact that many of the people attending Mosaic were brought in by...well...um, Robbie, has to merrit at least a visit from Erwin don't you think? I mean, isn't that what Pastors are supposed to do; Look after their flock when they need them most?
Gary, you call yourself a community. But what example is that of community from your own Pastor?
Carrie said...Yepiz, the bitterness that flows from your words spills and spills into cups that others drink...
Wow, I guess you can now brand me as the anti-Christ while you are at it. And you say I sound bitter?
Again, six months ago, I would have agreed that I was still bitter. But I'm not anymore.
No. I'm angry. And it's not anger in the evil way either. It's God's righteous anger towards a community that have hurt, misused, abandoned, and manipulated His children all in His name.
And since mosaic members like to use Scripture to manipulate or grind an axe, I will say this.
"Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes and like greetings in the marketplaces and have the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater
condemnation." - Mark 12:38 ESV
Keep calling yourself a movement. Keep trying to gain notoriety as the "cool" Church. I'm sure that type of humility is not what Jesus was referring to in the above passage.
But what do I know, I'm only bitter. Right?
January 26, 2007 11:09 PM
Anonymous said...
This blog and the myspace page does hurt and contains a lot of pain.
I was a part of this church and a part of the pain, I believe, by not recognizing or responding to the pain that I "heard" about. By not noticing when people left,not calling and saying hey what's up? by not asking the questions when something was strange, not pressing for answers or
biblical direction when I needed to. I went on with my passionate vision of who I thought I needed to be. I am guilty.
Someone asked why address this topic here? Could this blog be a natural result of a church not fully following Matthew 18: 15-18? When was the last time this church fully followed all the principles of this verse? There are more principles to this verse then just the first step. This verse
was not meant as a way to quiet people but as a way to deal with sin. Maybe this blog is a result (or consequence) of sin not being fully dealt with biblically here at this church? When was the last time it was? When was the last time someone was approached with their errors and asked
to repent and showed a way through their errors back to the cross? Gal 6:1 -Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. If they didn't repent when was the last time it was taken to one more
person, then again to the whole church?
Someone said, can't you just forgive? It's not just about forgiveness and moving on. What do we do with the verse Luke 17:3 3So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."
Is there repentance here? Is there someone asking the question why are people hurt? Why do they need a forum? What can we do as far as it up to us to be at peace? What was my part in this? How can I be a part of restoration?
Why is it that people are always interested in saying why is this person dividing, why are you saying this, instead of looking at what the person might be saying? Isn't the wise thing that no matter how someone says something to look to see what truth might be there? Even if it's just a
small truth?
And for the writers on this blog with some issues - would you meet with Erwin and the leaders if they did call a meeting? What would you ideally be praying for in this? What would be the best scenario for you? Do you think God is big enough to turn this situation around? For you? For
Mosaic? Where do you go from here?
Just something to think about.
January 26, 2007 11:14 PM
pableezy said...
i've read several people write about robbie's pain. most of us know what you mean, but that is not what robbie is talking about here. the issues that he and others are bringing to light have to do with the methodology of the mosaic leadership in dealing with people, not wounds from his/our
personal lives.
let's stick to the topic here and not discuss his personal situations.
the other theme from people writing in support of mosaic is forgiveness. of course the bible says that we need to forgive. that is a given. but that is completely separate from protecting people from encountering some of the same situations by speaking the truth. just because we forgive
does not mean that we should allow these things to continue.
i will stand with the bible in calling out anyone that is writing on this blog but is unwilling to forgive. but if our intentions are right and our consciences clean, then we should be able to share our experiences openly.
January 26, 2007 11:14 PM
an insider said...
Just as when Benny Hinn was exposed as a con-man on Dateline NBC in 2002 and millions refuse to believe, there will be thousands that refuse to believe the truth about Erwin McManus. Some of those people have already posted here. Others are sending emails confirming that they
are living in denial--they refuse to pull their head out of the sand. But there are some questions to which they should ascertain answers from those who will tell the truth. Erwin McManus is not a person who will answer truthfully.
Why did he send his henchmen to demand the resignation of Thom Wolf rather than being there himself? Why did he send others to boot out the man who had led that church for almost 3 decades, and yet wouldn’t even be present in the meeting? He has claimed he had nothing to do
with it. How can the lead elder have nothing to do with it? A real leader and person of integrity would not have accepted a forced resignation without talking to the one who was forced out.
Now Erwin forces Robert Martinez out, and puts a gag order on him, and spins it as though Robert came to a decision to retire on his own. Why can Robert not talk about what really happened? Why is his extended family reprimanded for telling the truth about what really happened?
Can Robert honestly answer the question, “Are you being threatened to silence your family?” Ask anyone in his family if they can talk openly about what really happened.
Why have many overseas workers and other leaders discovered that Erwin has repeated to numerous others what they shared with him in confidence? Many brothers and sisters went to him for counsel only to have their struggles and problems passed on by him to others who had
no reason to hear those things. It is pretty disingenuous for anyone associated with Erwin to say that Robbie or anyone else should talk privately with Erwin. Erwin is the worst sort of gossip. He doesn’t know the meaning of private or confidential. Brother to brother? Hello? Is that how he
dealt with Thom Wolf?
Get his former staff--those that are not under some signed gag order--to tell you how he divides and conquers. He plays his staff against each other so he can manipulate and control them. What kind of a person does this? Has anyone ever investigated whether there is some sort of
psychosis or neurosis driving this behavior?
And has there ever been an audit into his use of funds designated for purposes and projects other than those for which they were used?
There is a deep, dark hole that needs to be explored. But Erwin will do whatever necessary to keep that darkness from being brought into the light. There were Erwins present in Jesus’ day. Paul warned of the Erwins that would come. People of integrity do not ensure the darkness
remains covered by the use of gag orders.
January 27, 2007 9:10 AM
MOPmember said...
Many, many past Mosaic members have tried to address this in private; only to be ignored and shunned. Well, now it's time to shed some light on the problem...the TRUTH hurts.
January 27, 2007 10:57 AM
Anonymous said...
Now we're getting somewhere. This guy will take information told him in confidence and use it against you and others, including your children...be very careful!
In answer to the question where does Erwin get his learned behavior from? How about the fact that he and his brother worked for the SBC as professional "Ousters". That's right before he landed at Brady they were on staff with the SBC Home Mission Board and deployed to churches
to assist the leadership of struggling and dying SBC churches.
How did they "assist" you might ask? They met with the elders and staff to help them formulate strategies to removing tenured pastors. Sound familiar? Only Brady was thriving and growing when Erwin did it there. Oh yeah, and there was a bit of CONFLICT OF INTEREST, in that he
inherited the ousted pastor’s pulpit…
January 27, 2007 11:10 AM
Anonymous said...
As someone who served at Mosaic for a few years, okay, many years, as a youth worker and then a college leader, I think I can shed light on some issues. First of all, I speak as someone not personally offended by Erwin McManus. In fact, I am relieved that any problems I had with
Erwin I voiced. I am very fortunate, I realize, that he gave me the time to listen to my disagreements. I know that others have been frustrated by the fact that he did not give them much one on one to vent frustrations. We resolved any lingering problems amicably; however, the
disagreements I had with the church eventually took their toll: I ultimately left Mosaic.
As I read this blog published by Robbie Sortino, it’s important to keep in mind not just what is being posted, but by whom. These are not simply disillusioned believers angry at slights and should just "move on" as someone who posted on the Mosaic of Pain Myspace suggested. On this
blog alone, the following people have posted: Sortino, Frank Loaiza, Pablo Tovar, Alex Yepiz, and anonymous, who served as a missionary for Mosaic. So you have a former pastor, a former youth pastor, two former college leaders, and a missionary, all of whom enjoy excellent
reputations. Add these to the list of people devastated by the decisions of this leadership: a present leader, according to the poster Esp96. In addition, we haven’t heard from the former senior pastor but it’s no secret his personal devastation with the church having served there for
nearly thirty years and subsequently dismissed. I personally know about a dozen more people who have been hurt that haven’t posted. Their claims can hardly be dismissed as arbitrary or even sour grapes directed at a "great guy like Erwin" as someone posted. These are serious
claims by serious people. Even if you don’t like the claims, I invite you to at least READ them, think about them, and if you must, disagree with them. To just delete them without much thought does a great disservice to people who literally built this church with their hard work, tears, and
prayers.
Ruben Aguilar
January 27, 2007 11:29 AM
Ken Silva said...
Hello Robbie,
Let me offer an ear if you want to talk with me off the record about all this. I feel led of the Lord to be willing to take this on as a project should any be led to speak to me.
I leave that with those it involves but as one who has already been reaching Erwin and his man-centered teachings of love of self it would be within what I am doing to look into this further.
Now the offer is there and you know where I am. :-)
January 28, 2007 6:21 AM
Anonymous said...
I was a member of The Church on Brady and then Mosaic. I was in leadership and very involved in life at Mosaic. Mosaic was my “third place” and the place I most wanted to be. I did not leave Mosaic on a bad note and I count many of the people on both sides of these postings as
friends. I do not have a personal story of deceit, betrayal, or manipulation to tell, but I do have questions that have bothered me for some time and I hope some of you will comment and shed some light on the subject.
I was there when Erwin took the reigns of leadership, and I was there the night we were all told that Brother Tom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship somewhere else. That night we all gathered together in the sanctuary at Brady as Erwin shared in a very heartfelt way how difficult it
had been for him to lead while Brother Tom stayed on as Teaching Pastor. He shared how he was torn between his affection for Brother Tom and his need to lead the church as he had been called. I believe it was Rick Yamamoto who told us how they had sought counsel from other
church leaders and how they came to the conclusion that Brother Tom needed to leave for the sake of the church. The gravity of the situation weighed on us all. Our happy family was experiencing a great loss. That in and of itself was saddening, but what would come next would draw a
collective sigh from the room. Erwin went on tell us that Brother Tom did not take the news well and was in disagreement with him and the elders. He told us that he and the elders had extended an invitation to Brother Tom so that they could work out there differences but that Brother Tom
had refused to meet with them… Were you there? Do you remember that moment? I do, and I remember the feeling of that moment very well. I felt shaken. Our stalwart teacher Brother Tom had fallen. His pride had gotten the better of him. He was so angry and hurt by this all that he would
not even meet with Erwin or the elders that he had known and loved for so long. We were asked to pray for Brother Tom as if he needed to be restored, and I did.
Years passed and I continued to serve at Mosaic until it was time for me to move on. While I often thought of Brother Tom, I didn’t really question much of what happened to him. I trusted that Erwin and the elders did what needed to be done for the sake of the church. A few years ago I ran
into an old friend from Mosaic and we began to reminisce. When the subject of Brother Tom came up he looked at me as if there was something I needed to know. He went on to explain that Brother Tom was indeed invited to meet with Erwin and the Elders, but under three conditions. The
conditions were told to me as follows: 1. Brother Tom had to go alone; he could not bring a witness. 2. Brother Tom would not be allowed to speak or address Erwin and the elders. 3. Brother Tom would not be allowed to tell anyone what was said to him… Did you know this? Have you
ever heard this? Is this troubling to you? It was to me, so much so that I had to find others who could corroborate this. I have not seen Brother Tom in years, so I have not asked him directly, but I have received confirmation from two others whose character would not dare be impugned
by anybody involved in this discussion that knows them.
That night we were led to believe that Brother Tom was the issue; that Brother Tom was refusing to be restored to fellowship. If it is true that there were these three conditions to the meeting, then it was not a call to fellowship - a call to reason together, it was a call for complete surrender
and submission; and I find that frightening. Who would accede to such authoritarian demands? I don’t believe Erwin would. The elders? If all this is true, they already have.
At best it was a simple half-truth, at worst, slanderous. If we had been told of these three conditions that night, it would not have been a collective sigh that was heard, but rather an incredulous gasp because brother Tom had built a Berean Church.
It may seem a small matter to some of you who did not know Brother Tom, but to those of you who do, were you there? Do you remember what was said and how you felt? Rick is it true, were there indeed these conditions placed on Brother Tom and why were we led to believe
something entirely different? Enrique, Robert? David, did you know about this? Gerardo? Did anybody think there was something wrong with misleading us about one of God’s anointed? Ricky, you’re a man with a heart for God, how do you feel about this? Was this fair to Brother Tom?
Is he owed a public apology? I ask even now as you are reading this that the Holy Spirit will not let any of us be mislead and that you may all be blessed with discernment. I would like to hear from the elders how they allowed Brother Tom to be painted in such a false light. How do you feel
about what was done to him?
That night as Pastor Erwin dismissed us, he comforted us and said he knew how upsetting it must have been for us to hear such news. He told us to feel free to ask any questions of him or the elders by submitting them in writing. I know a church leader who submitted questions. He was
asked to come to the church office to have his concerns addressed. When he arrived he was ushered in to a closed door meeting with Erwin and the elders. When he began to speak, Erwin abruptly told him that he would not be allowed to speak during their meeting. His questions
were never addressed. He was told to leave the church and not speak of their meeting. Were other voices silenced? God truly knows.
I have felt for some time now that something very wrong happened at Mosaic. I have been hesitant to ask these questions in the past because I do not want to cast aspersions on one of God’s anointed, however, we need to ask questions and we shouldn’t be afraid of the truth. If what I
was told by these witnesses was a lie, I ask God to speak clearly to me and let me know that I have been deceived, but if what they say is true, I ask God to speak clearly to Erwin, the staff, and those of you who have ears to hear.
May God bless us and guide us all into all truth. May the Holy Spirit convict us of our sin and not allow us to be misled, and may we surrender completely to Christ alone.
January 28, 2007 11:17 PM
Dean Manibog said...
Hi Robbie, I don't know much about what went on with you and Mosaic, but I know your character and your spirt, flaws and all. You were our Pastor in Pasadena. You created community where there was none, your preaching was real and transparent, and you were a servant to all.
We miss you, love you, and support you. Jesus will be exaulted.
January 28, 2007 11:49 PM
loweyesah said...
Yes, I too was there the night we heard about Bro. Tom and Linda being asked to leave. I too wrote down some questions, but never was able to meet with Erwin about those questions. I met with Robert Martinez and he told me what had happened. I was surprised to hear what Robert
told me. I understand that Bro. Tom was hurt, but he, (Tom), always told us that he would continue to be at Brady until he was asked to leave. He was asked to leave and he did. I asked Bro. Tom about his meetings with Erwin and the staff, (in the Summer of 2001), and he graciously told
me that they DID-In-Fact Meet, and that the "ball was in their court" for the next move.
I'm not sure if MOSAIC ever did anything after this. It was sad to me to see these two leaders deal with their issues like this.
I always got the impression that Erwin was always very carefull about "saving face" and making it look like it was the other elders and not HE that asked Bro. Tom to leave. I have always felt that this whole thing was done in a very under-handed manner.
I guess we will never really know...
Sometimes what happens behind closed doors never truly gets revealed.
It's comforting to me to know that God knows and that He will bring justice and that He will ultimately be exalted like Dean said in the previous post.
I was at the Meeting, and that was one more reason that I began to lose respect for Erwin....
-Frank Loaiza
for those wishing to Contact me:
frankloaiza@gmail.com
January 29, 2007 8:09 AM
Anonymous said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
January 29, 2007 6:03 PM
Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
I attended or was affiliated with Brady/Mosaic from 1983 thru 1999. Essentially, half of my time with this church was spread equally between the two. I have followed this blog from the time it was first posted. It is unfortunate that things have come to a place where a forum like this is
necessary, but it is.
I was not present when the vote occurred for Erwin to take the reins of leadership, the one that “Anonymous” (January 28, 2007 11:17 PM) refers to, I was in Japan with my wife. I was not present when it was announced that Bro Thom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship else
where, I was in Japan with my wife and our 3 young boys.
I have, however spoken with both Erwin and Bro Thom about what transpired and I agree that what Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17) wrote is what each of the two men told me. Erwin says he had no part in asking Thom to leave and Thom says he was willing to meet with the leadership, but
not under the conditions that were set.
Many attempted to get this situation straightened out, to no avail. It hurt the members beyond belief. I suggested that the ones with the responsibility to the membership (the residing leaders) should invite Thom to a public Wednesday night meeting and ask him to forgive them for the
mistakes they admitted to making. I suggested this to Erwin and Robert and they were not willing to consider it.
I love Bro Thom like a big brother. Did he make mistakes in this situation? Probably, but until there is a fair discussion we will never know. As an individual who was stripped of his authority Thom is unable to orchestrate the type of “town hall meeting” that should have happened, and still
needs to happen. Both the faithful Brady members that helped form this church, and the Mosaic members that keep it going, deserve to see their leaders live out the same kind of selfless Christ like behavior that we are called to.
Until the transition from one leader to the next can be dealt with in a fair and biblical way I do not believe there will be healing and a full blessing from God upon all of us.
Your brother in Christ,
Eddie Marshall
P.S. I understand that this blog is about a much larger issue. However, I believe that this is where it began and we need to go back to where we got off track and begin there.
January 29, 2007 7:41 PM
Anonymous said...
However, the reason that I grieve is because I know ---GOOD--- people who have been manipulated,
-REJECTED-, and -ABANDONED-.
January 29, 2007 11:24 PM
Anonymous said...
I have followed this blog for a bit and it makes me very sad. Mosaic is a community of faith that I strongly admire and look up to. I had the opportunity to serve at this community for two months and I grew in ways that I would never know were possible. Even though I know many of you
have been hurt, I dont think that a blog is necessary "to expose" whatever lies and manipulation you believe exists. There is no perfect church. Paul had problems with some of the churches, but he wrote letters to them directly addressing these issues. You have posted a myspace
page and a blog that the whole world can see. And in that you think you are helping people to stay away from this Church. One commenter said that it the point was to keep people who dont know Christ from coming to this church. Maybe many of you have been saved for a very long
time and cant quite remember what it is like to live with no faith, no hope and no love. It is the cause of Christ that you are giving a bad name to. I have family and many friends that dont know Christ. I wouldnt want them to see this blog because it would be just another reason why they
should not follow Christ. If Christ followers act like this, then why bother right? The rest of the world does it and we are no different. Even if you dont agree with Mosaic or their members, there is no need for a blog. Speak to them directly. Please stop hurting the Bride. She is already
bleeding and wounded. Dont cause her anymore pain.
"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the unexcusable in you." C.S. Lewis
January 30, 2007 12:49 AM
Anonymous said...
Amen!! Eddie Marshall, "where we got off track is where we need to GO BACK TOO" You cannot move forward on a track that has missing supports.
January 30, 2007 1:05 AM
Matt said...
Robbie,
I pray for you and for others who have experienced pain. I think you know I love you and want to see God continue to use your life. I am sorry that this is how you feel you need to use your energy and talents. I pray that God would bring healing and reconciliation, in many places. No
one is without fault. However, I don't see how this blog is the answer. I am also concerned by all the anonymous comments. I feel if people want to write, make accusations, give their stories, they should also use their names. It is hard to deal with issues not knowing who is involved. I
would love to talk. I will try to call you when my skype gets to working.
I know that there have been times when people have been asked to step down or not allowed to continue in a ministry area. I haven't always agreed with the decisions but I have felt that when the people really approached the leaders in humility and dealt with thing biblically, that there
was healing and restoration. I understand that others don't agree or feel that has happened (as evidenced by their posts) but that has been my experience. I can also say that on a personal level, Erwin has always been gracious, loving and desired the best for me. He has invested in
my life in so many ways to help me heal and become the person I am today. I know he isn't perfect. I see faults in him. But, I do believe he loves God, knows and faithfully interprets his word, and seeks to bring others into relationship with Jesus.
I would like to challenge everyone who posts here to take at least the same amount of time that they have taken to read and post on this blog to pray for Mosaic, its leaders and ask for God to be glorified. More will be accomplished in our prayers than in our blogs.
Matt Burtch
January 30, 2007 1:27 AM
Anonymous said...
Come on Matt,
Now you get involved? At who's request do you now decide to participate? Remember last year when I called you in tears about this situation looking for some sort of guidance? I'm still waiting for you to return my call.
David Torres.
January 30, 2007 2:20 PM
Yepiz said...
Oh Matt,
You said...I am also concerned by all the anonymous comments. I feel if people want to write, make accusations, give their stories, they should also use their names.
That's the biggest straw man I've ever encountered. What about those that are from Mosaic using anonymous?
I bet they do that because if people knew who they were, some of their own mishandlings of people would be exposed as well.
Eddie Marshall said it best. Stay on topic.
The only responses I have heard form the Borg...err...Mosaicites, is that we are "dividers, bitter, un-clear, evil, not doing God's work, agents of Satan," and so on.
Not one of you here has validated our experience without popping some Scripture to justify your wrongdoings, asking for fogiveness, or wanting to fully understand our pain.
This is exactly what all of us that have been hurt hav been saying throughout this entire blog!
Let's get something straight. We as Christians are not follow men blindly. We are to follow Christ.
Mosaicites will follow their leader, Erwin McManus, no matter what wrongs or sins he committs.
Somewhere, Ted Haggard is asking, "Why were these guys not on my staff?"
January 30, 2007 3:46 PM
Anonymous said...
Robbie,
I am addressing you. All these other responses are the indirect responses of your heart.
Your blog seemed so simple and from the heart. A victim. You knew exactly what fire you were going to ignite. The same fire that is fueling you; hurt, anger, and bitterness.
Why don’t you speak with who ever has hurt you? I am not going to quote God’s word to you. You know it. That is what pains me. I know God is not pleased by all this whole blog thing. I know He is sad.
Sad with Him,
Laura Oronoz
January 30, 2007 5:17 PM
Anonymous said...
Who are the lost sheep, or “who” is Jesus referring to when He gives us an example about the woman turning over her entire household for a misplaced coin? It is not the non-believer but rather the ones that have come into the fold and are now separated. Somehow, seemingly
because churches and their respective denominations can grow in numbers quicker, the holy grail of Evangelicalism in the 21st century has become winning the lost, even at the expense of ignoring or in some cases abusing the brethren.
An anonymous comment on here said, “Paul had problems with some of the churches, but he wrote letters to them directly addressing these issues. You have posted a myspace page and a blog that the whole world can see.” Umh, and those letters that Paul wrote ended up in the
greatest selling book of all time; THE BIBLE. I sort of think that book far outreaches all of bolgging and MySpace put together.
Oh my, let’s keep up the facade that, “All is well within Christianity. We can’t let the world know we have any problems.” Why not? As Christians we do not practice a faith that has no problems, we worship the God that can heal ALL problems. Sorry, but it isn’t about being perfect. It is about
confessing our sins and letting God forgive us of them and cleansing us from them.
Ephesians 5: 8-14
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is
shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
"Wake up, O sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you."
Should there be anything that we do in our churches that we need to hide from the world? Anything at all? Are we a cult? Do we have special ceremonies? Customs? Traditions? None. We live in the Light. Exposed for all to see. Of course we need to be considerate of each others
private lives, but when it comes to how the church as a body functions; we are public for all to see. What Christianity does completely different than any other group is be transparent, open and honest, when it is not…well, there must be something to “hide”.
Eddie Marshall
January 30, 2007 5:20 PM
Anonymous said...
Laura,
Do you understand my dad's heart?
Mosaic refuses to consider the fact that this is not about bitterness, because in doing so they open up the possibility that there is a greater evil that lurks in your congregation. Do you think God doesn't love us? Do you think we don't love God? Do you think we just woke up one day with
nothing to do? This is painful for my family but we must follow our convictions. You think we are attacking a church that is being defended by hundreds yet you have not seen the private attacks that we have received through mail that a family of five is enduring. The staff at mosaic knows
Robbie is a good man. They know he has always been wise and responsible with his words. They know he would not have written this blog unless he felt It was the right thing to do before God. I promise you that you are in the company of men and woman who have chosen to stay
quite so that your imagination leads you to think the worst of us. You are being led no doubt to believe that this is about Robbie’s personal issues but I promise you it goes way beyond one individual or even one small group.
David Torres
January 30, 2007 8:39 PM
loweyesah said...
After speaking with Robbie about this Blog. I know that he has thought long and hard about this blog and what is written here.
He has chosen his words wisely, and I think/hope that God will be vindicated in all of this.
The TRUTH stays the same lies are always changing...
David Torres, Eddie Marshall and Alex have said it well. This is not just about a man, it is about a system, an organization that was started by said man. It has cracks, it has flaws, and we all have flaws as well. But, we also know that we have tried to discuss these things/flaws with the
leadership at MOSAIC. I know that I have... I know that Robbie has as well. The time for closed door meetings is over. These things needed to be exposed, and they have.
I hope we all take the time to do a realistic-self appraisal of our lives. Just like Paul stated, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we
have not failed the test. Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. We are glad
whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection. " 2Cor13-5-ff
I love everyone who has posted here. I don't know people's hearts, but I know my heart, and know that it is evil. I know I had to examine myself before I wrote anything. Robbie has created a forum for us to finally speak up and share what really happened, not what MOSAIC/Erwin wanted
you to assume/presume happened.
-Frank Loaiza
frankloaiza@gmail.com
January 31, 2007 7:24 AM
Anonymous said...
Hello, I am a bit new to this and I'm tryng to get up to date. I was reading Aaron's post on MOP. Does anybody know why Robert Martinez was let go? Thanks.
sd
January 31, 2007 9:44 AM
Anonymous said...
Peeps,
I just stumbled onto this site while googling Mosaic. I recently started listening to the podcasts and I'm totally lovin' it! After reading all of this, I gotta say...okay! Enough already! We get it! You got hurt! You were sad. Now move on. When someone hurts me, I go to them. I man up! If they don't
want to face me, I man up! I make them. I'm a persistent bugger. I don't let years pass. This blog is full of people whinning about the past. Be a man...if someone hurt you, talk to them about it. Go to them. If everyone knows everyone on this page, call them or go to their house and sit their until
they finally agree to talk. You people just need to get into a ring and fight. Get all of your aggression out the old-fashion way. If you really believe Erwin and the Mosaic "movement" is evil, then do something about it other than smoking a bitter pipe and ranting about someone from the safety
of your office cubicles. Throw down! (And make sure someone videos it and puts it on YouTube. That would be awesome!) Now if you will excuse me, I had a close friend in the 4th grade tell me that I couldn't ride his bike because I was too fat, and I have to go and post a blog on my site
about how evil he is and how I'm not bitter. Feel free to stew over my email for 10 years and create a blog about me. I would be honored!
P.S. If you think Erwin is evil, and now want to get in the bed with the likes of Ken Silva...now you're really screwed! (You might want to get tested afterwards too.)
John Stewart
donebraugtsexyback@yahoo.com
January 31, 2007 11:43 AM
Ruben said...
Matt, Laura, others:
I’d be curious to read your response to these points: 1. Numerous posters have agreed with Robbie that there have been abuses of power in the Mosaic leadership. Are these other posters the result of “bitter” hearts, too? 2. If the claims are inaccurate, why has the Mosaic leadership
been mum about the claims? To me, it seems they are allowing the Body, both former and present members, to twist in the wind. 3. The purpose of the blog, and others like it, is not to pour the cup of bitterness like someone has written, but to prevent this kind of abuse and ousting of
dedicated leaders to continue. There is a concern that this will keep happening. To you, does this kind of concern emanate from ill motives?
January 31, 2007 12:28 PM
esp96 said...
Sd,
I think the question you asked could only be answered by the person who let my uncle go. I can give only speculation. However I will not do that because I am more concerned with telling the truth of the events that transpired.
Aaron
January 31, 2007 1:55 PM
andy said...
Today I sat down and typed "Robbie Sortino" in Google, just to see. Robbie, we only talked a few times while you were at Mosaic, but each time I came away encouraged. You were the one of a couple top leaders (most of the others quietly left before you) who I knew would listen,
respond, and help me on this journey. I'm still thankful for that. When I typed your name into Google, I was thinking maybe I'd send you an email and tell you so. Actually, I was going to recommend this book, Divine Nobodies, that I've been reading.
I have thought often about voicing my own concerns about Mosaic on the Internet. It's obviously not a simple or easy thing to do. Hearing these others at least helps me know I'm not alone.
One reason I haven't written about Mosaic is that I'm still a member, or "staff," though I'm in another country. Even when I was at Mosaic I led a life group, and that life group really defined my Mosaic experience. As Mosaic has turned more and more toward movement with an increasing
culture of control (which was there before Erwin left in my experience) I've remained attached through relationships with the members of our old life group.
Also, I feel the hesitance of people to give names and really appreciate those who have done that. I remember being at Mosaic on Sundays and, during the sermon, sometimes hearing examples of things people had complained about being pilloried by Erwin. That shocked me and
gave me second thoughts every time I thought about raising a concern myself.
I don't want to start writing things about Erwin. I still respect him and hope the best for him, but I don't really know him all that well.
I'll send you an email later Robbie if I can find your address.
January 31, 2007 5:54 PM
By the way, I personally don't have a big problem with Mosaic's theology, or with Erwin's theology. My only concern there are the "shoulds" and "oughts" lurking in the message. I don't think the solution at Mosaic is more conservative theology but more freedom in Christ.
On the other hand, I do question the methods and the driving passion for an image and movement -- a Mosaic movement. I think Mosaic is becoming more, not less of a religious system, and less able to lay down it's form and structure in response to what Jesus is doing. I don't think this
is obvious, because the talk and image say otherwise.
I don't write these things to tear down the people following Jesus who are part of Mosaic. I think if some structures and image created by Mosaic are threatened, then that's not a bad thing. As I have heard Erwin say many times, form submits to Spirit. We should always be ready to
discard structures. Unfortunately, the leaders at Mosaic seems to constantly rearranging (and making life difficult for some friends who run around picking up pieces) when perhaps it's time to tear out huge swaths of concrete and steel.
January 31, 2007 7:24 PM
doug said...
Robbie, blessings to you.
Several have informed me of this blog and I have taken the time to read many of the responses which have been pouring in. I am really not amazed by the volume of responses, truly I am not. I know there are many, many more who can be added to this number. I wasn’t going to add
anything of my own to the mix, however there was one entry I read for which I thought I might be able to contribute something of substance.
Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17), you said that you were there when Erwin took the reigns of leadership. I too was there on that occasion. You stated that you were also there the night we were all told that Brother Tom and Linda were asked to seek fellowship somewhere else. I was there as
well. You also said, “I do have questions that have bothered me for some time and I hope some of you will comment and shed some light on the subject.” Well, I don’t know if this is what you had in mind but if you have any questions regarding what was actually said during that
Wednesday night meeting in May, 1998, I might be able to help. I will not do it over a medium such as this, however. You can contact Frank Loaiza, who has listed his e-mail address elsewhere in these postings here. He will give you my e-mail address and you can contact me that way.
I also have a copy of the two-page handout distributed that night to all who were there; the handout being a copy of the text Erwin had written and had had e-mailed to all the missionaries we had in the field at that time, explaining the situation to them in his words.
Anonymous (Jan. 28 11:17), you had also stated about that night that as Pastor Erwin dismissed us “he told us to feel free to ask any questions of him or the elders by submitting them in writing”. I remember that well. I took them at their word and wrote down numerous questions I had in a
letter, of which I sent to each elder a copy. To this date I have not received a response to any one of my questions from any of the four Elders then holding office (Erwin, Enrique, Rick, or Robert). This letter was written as an “open” letter. As it continues to lack response from any of those
individuals I would have no problem in sharing it if you feel it would serve you charitably. It is not hearsay. I took care in my documentation. The quotes I used came directly from their mouths on that night to which you referred. These were not private conversations being in need of
confirmation by two or three witnesses. They were publicly proclaimed to the church body by the elders themselves; so Matthew 18 does not apply. [Further note: This is not a secret. I did not hide my intent from the Elders when I submitted it to them as an “open” letter. So it will not be
taking them unawares should anyone refer it to them now.]
January 31, 2007 10:05 PM
Believing the Impossible... said...
Let me just start by saying that I’m glad I came across this site and I’m glad that other individuals have finally come together to expose the farce so blindly referred to as Mosaic Church.
I am a MOP survivor who left the church in 1999 well before most of the major deception occurred. Even as a child in Jr. and Sr. High I saw the direction the “church” was going in and I knew that something wasn’t right. I am very good at reading people, I am a keen observer, and I am
also a person who people confide in. From the first day that I met Erwin McManus I knew that he had ulterior motives, I knew that he was someone who would use his position to gain wealth, notoriety, and power rather than using his position to teach, train, and spread the gospel. I looked
into his eyes and saw through the façade. I was not fooled. Anyone who knows me can attest to the fact that I have long been predicting the day that Erwin would be exposed as the proverbial wolf in sheep’s clothing and the Mosaic organization would fall apart from within. Friends, I
believe that this day is near and we must continue to pray and be vigilant until the truth is finally revealed.
I believe that Erwin’s deceit began when he conned his way into the pastor-ship of the old Church on Brady. He led Pastor Wolf and the congregation to believe that he would build upon Pastor Wolf’s Legacy, not tear it down. As a result of this deceit the church elected to support Erwin’s
bid to succeed Pastor Wolf. Almost immediately Erwin began to consolidate his power, make decisions in dark smoke filled rooms about the future of the church, and strategically remove well respected and influential members from the church who he saw as threats to his power. This
created a great rift in the church which led to the exodus of nearly HALF of its membership who fled to other churches in the area including Gateway Community, Lake Avenue, Pasadena Nazarene, Calvary Chapel, and Faith Community Church. My family was one of the few who
stayed. We had been attending faithfully since the 80’s and became members in 1988 so my parents were not about to leave just yet.
The next big lie was the “Believing the Impossible” campaign. Erwin’s vision was to create a mega-church far away from the “ghetto” of East Los Angeles where the original Church on Brady was located. Erwin even confided to my father that he was not here to “minister to cholos” and
he expressed his desire to find another property as soon as possible. So Erwin had his musicians pen songs, he had his actors create plays, and he gave some motivational sermons touting the need to give and give generously to the Believing the Impossible Fund. He had church
goers commit to Daily, Weekly, Monthly, Annually, and/or Lump Sum contributions and he made sure to apply pressure on those unwilling to contribute. Believe or leave was the order of the day.
I know of one Nurse and his wife who gave THE ENTIRE DOWN PAYMENT THEY HAD SAVED UP FOR THEIR FIRST HOME to the campaign, my parents contributed nearly $30,000, and as a high school student, I contributed over $1000 as well. The campaign lasted for approximately
three years and hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of dollars were raised. Then came the real problems that led to my decision to leave Mosaic in 1999, my parents’ decision to leave in 2000, and my brother’s decision to leave in 2006. Where did all the money go???
There were no updates provided to the congregation as to how much money was raised, who was investing the money, how much money was coming in/out, or what properties the church was pursuing. Sure, we held church on some vacant properties here and there but there was
never any clear communication as to the direction the Believing the Impossible drive was going. Almost immediately after the Believing the Impossible campaign began, Erwin and his family purchased two new cars, moved into a mini-mansion in Uptown Whittier’s stately historical
district, and started to travel the country. I thought this spending spree was particularly interesting because Erwin had mentioned on multiple occasions in his sermons the need to sacrifice and put off big purchases in order to contribute the maximum amount to the Believing the
Impossible Campaign. There was even an Elder in the church (who worked as an investment manager) who purchased a Toyota Camry instead of a Lexus in order to donate the difference to the campaign.
To me Erwin’s acquisitions were very suspicious, but to those on Erwin’s Leadership team it was business as usual. After the spending spree the radical fundamental changes ensued. There was the name change from Church on Brady to Mosaic, there was the changing of the
church charter, the revision of the doctrine, a new mission statement, asking the former Pastor, Tom Wolf to leave the church, and asking respected Elders to Leave the church. There was also a shift in focus from cultivating, teaching, and growing the congregation to becoming a
church on the “cutting edge” in terms of technology, artistic expression, interpretive dance, and drama etc. All of these things came at the expense of ministry. As a result of this shift in focus the youth ministry, college ministry, singles ministry, family ministry, and the senior ministry
completely fell apart and were almost non-existent. There was a fairly good sized children’s ministry but there was a significant drop off in the high school ministry and non-existent college, singles, family, and senior ministries. This was all part of Erwin’s plan. His desire was to build a
base of wealthy young professionals who would be able to tithe a lot more than college students, working families, and senior citizens.
To that end he decided to move the church from its long time home in East LA to multiple sites. Thus, Mosaic Glendale, downtown, San Gabriel, Beverly Hills, and Pasadena were born (some locations are now defunct). Erwin strategically chose these locations because of the high
concentration of young professionals and people who work in the entertainment industry. These attendees would provide a base of financial support and would bring attention to Mosaic.
As a result of this decision, Erwin gained local, national, and international notoriety. He was interviewed frequently and many news reports and studies were conducted on this modern church. Erwin’s plan was finally coming to fruition. He started writing books, lecturing, and attending
special events. He was sought after as a quest speaker for many conventions and conferences. He was finally able to gain the power, notoriety, and financial success he had planned for and although he didn’t have a mega church he had the influence.
Did Erwin’s success come at a cost? The answer to that question is YES. You pay the cost and the cost is your spiritual well-being. From all appearances Erwin is not interested in helping you become a better Christian, he is not interested in helping you become stronger in your walk.
He is only interested in that which will increase the size of his power, influence, and bank account. It matters not whether you stay or go, so long as the tithe keeps coming in. There are no ministries to encourage you, train you, support you, or help you grow (unless you are into the
“arts”) and absolutely nothing for you if you are over the age of 55.
To this day Mosaic has not purchased a property. They continue to rent multiple locations in trendy areas around the LA area. There is no communication as to where the Believing the Impossible money went. The forced resignations and exodus of long time staff continues. No matter
what, through it all, Erwin remains all powerful.
If you are currently attending Mosaic I pray that your eyes would be open to what is going on. I pray that you would wake up and free yourself. I hope that you would move on to a church that desires to help you improve your life and your walk. It is my desire to help others understand
that we cannot support Erwin’s quest for greatness. As more and more people see the truth, more will leave the church. Hopefully this will send a message that the focus needs to be brought back to ministering to the individual and bringing the lost into the flock.
I leave you with this:
Rom 1:16-22
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,* just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
February 1, 2007 4:08 AM
Anonymous said...
I am a former member of Brady who served in the youth, college, and creative arts ministries from 1982 until 1993 when my wife and I left to help start another church. If memory serves me right, the transition to Erwin as Pastor happened about the same time we were starting to form the
church planting team. I know and love so many of those posting and those who have been posted about. As I have watched this blog grow, my emotions and thoughts have evolved as well. At first I was angry and felt hurt for those who have been injured. I was concerned that this would
backfire on Robbie who I know to be a man with a heart for God and did not see what good would come of it. Now what I see is an opportunity. We all know that Christ’s heart is toward unity as expressed in his prayer in John 17:22-23 “I have given them the glory that you gave me, that
they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”
The opportunity I see is for reconciliation, healing, and unity. For those in leadership at Mosaic I ask that you humble yourselves and be reconciled to those who have been hurt. "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something
against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." For those who have been hurt, be open to those who have hurt you and be quick to forgive.
I believe that if both sides seek complete reconciliation that God will move in ways beyond our comprehension. I believe God wants to bless Mosaic and those who have been hurt and is holding back part of that blessing until there is repentance and reconciliation.
With Much Love,
Bruce Welch
welchbru@aol.com
February 1, 2007 5:00 PM
Anonymous said...
FORGIVENESS
We are driving down the road, me at the wheel, you a passenger. I'm driving a little over the speed limit. It starts to rain, you say, "Maybe you should slow down." I do not. Instead I increase my speed out of stubbornness. When we come to a curve in the road the car we are riding in
spins out of control and slams into a tree. You awaken in a hospital bed in a full body cast. I am standing over your bed, a bandage on my head, tears welling up in my eyes. "Please forgive me, I was irresponsible and I have caused you pain." I say. You quietly pray, "Please God, give
me the strength to forgive this man for the pain he has caused me." He does. "I forgive you." you say. I smile, wipe the tears from my eyes and thank you for your understanding. After a few niceties I walk out of the room; where you lay in the hospital bed with your full body cast and a
strong feeling of God's grace and presence in your life. It truly does feel good to let go of bitterness and forgive. A couple of weeks go by and you hear that I had another accident, this time I am dead and my passenger, along with me. Why didn't you hold me accountable? Why did you
assume that "forgiveness" removed the responsibility you have to warn others about my bad behavior, and why didn't you see that behavior as dangerous to others as well? Forgiveness is just one half of the equation to healing and restoration when one person hurts another.
“Forgiveness” is when we lovingly, with patience and understanding, call those into accountability who have hurt us or others. Through our forgiveness, God can use us to help people change and become better as we hold them responsible for their actions.
Eddie Marshall
February 1, 2007 7:04 PM
Andy said...
I was thinking about this, and I decided to write one more comment. I just want to encourage everyone writing and reading here to move forward toward Jesus whatever it takes. I truly don't believe Jesus has been diminished even when trust has been broken by people or a religious
system.
Robbie, you have taken such incredible hits. The only words I can think of to say are probably not things I should write down. I can't feel your pain, but I'm angry that someone I care about who doesn't seem to deserve it hurts. If outing the brokenness in Mosaic somehow helps you
move forward with Jesus again, then so be it. Good or bad, I know God can use this. But if this isn't what Jesus is doing, or when it ceases to be that, then I hope you'll let it go. I just want you to find hope in Jesus and be able to trust again. The Jesus I know is much bigger than Mosaic and
so much more capable than I am to solve the hurt.
Anyway, if you want to exchange emails than follow my link and get in touch. I don't know how to contact you, so... Peace.
February 2, 2007 4:12 AM
Anonymous said...
Bruce,
Thank you. Your post really expressed some of the changing emotions that I have felt in reading this blog. My heart especially resonated with your thought that we now have an opportunity. An opportunity for reconciliation, healing and unity that would powerfully and more fully release
the blessings of God in all our lives.
I am joining you and many others in wholeheartedly praying toward this end.
For His glory,
Wade Harlan
oppty@mail.com
February 2, 2007 9:55 AM
MOPmember said...
Having read every comment on this blog, I feel comfortable to ask if there should be an investigation of Mosaic and its leaders? Sure there should be prayer and all, but there are a couple of very serious allegations here. Misappropriation of funds by a non-profit organization, not to say
the least. If that is true then we are talking criminal offenses, if it is not true then the record should be set straight and the claims revealed to be false. Either way, something more than just praying about it needs to occur.
February 2, 2007 12:24 PM
Anonymous said...
MOP member may be correct in his comment about investigation. Was this why Robert was asked to resign? Why did Robert resign? If it has to do with finances someone needs to speak up. I know that Mosaic has many members, but no "church" and a lot of my and other's money
went to "Believing the Impossible" And I can't believe Mosic is still without a home. In the business world you would be liable.And in God's family we would expect to be compensated times 7. Shouldn't the church be better?
February 2, 2007 5:54 PM
esp96 said...
This is to the February 2, 2007 5:54 PM Anonymous. You’re connecting dots from random questions. Questions that need to be answered, and are warranted.
However, let me set the record straight. My uncle Robert was not asked to resign, let alone asked to resign due to financial matters. I’ve talked about him here, and have said he was forced to retire. He was stripped of many of his responsibilities, and was placed in a vulnerable position
when posed with the notion of retiring. The manner in which it was done bares the same resemblance to the manipulation techniques described elsewhere on this blog and others. And for the record, they initially didn’t want to give him any compensation for his many years of service.
I hope I cleared up any misconceptions.
February 2, 2007 7:40 PM
Anonymous said...
Where is the Apostle Paul when you need him?
Well, of course Paul is with Christ in glory but his God-breathed epistles live on...
How would Paul deal with this? Good question because he has already given us the Biblical response to "leader's gone wild".
1) He publically challenged them and called out their error.
2) He warned the Churches by giving names of apostates and for the elders to rebuke them by the Word. 3) He pointed out their sure end and destruction as a warning and confirmation when it happened.
4) He knew and taught about the characteristics of "leader's gone wild":
*they don't honor the cross of Christ (where's the Gospel in it's fullness when they teach).
*what is their appetite for? (self-promotion, greed, ego, etc..or for the glory of Christ and Christ alone).
*what do they set their mind on? (earthly things or heavenly things)
*do they feed and protect the flock of Christ?
Paul would lead the charge to clean and purge this blot in the church. Where are the Paul's of our day? Where are the leader's who will stand with Paul in his spirit of zeal for Christ and His Church? The flock of God must be protected from the likes of wordly men.
Rise up, O men of God! Have done with lesser things;
Give heart and mind and soul and strength To serve the King of kings.
Rise up, O men of God! His kingdom tarries long;
Bring in the day of brotherhood And end the night of wrong.
Rise up O men of God! The church for you doth wait, Her strength unequal to her task; Rise up, and make her great!
Lift high the cross of Christ! Tread where His feet have trod; As brothers of the Son of man, Rise up, O men of God!
Now, if you don't mind, I must get a cup of coffee...sugar and cream of course.
Ed
February 2, 2007 10:20 PM
wondering said...
Mission is Why the church Exists
If you are at Mosaic very often you will hear the phrase over and over again that “Mission is why the church exists.” This makes sense, but what is that mission? It would seem from Mosaic’s perspective that mission means reaching lost people. And as noble as that sound, I would ask,
“Is reaching lost people the ONLY mission of the church? The parable of the lost sheep where the shepherd leaves the 99 to search for the 1 is used repeatedly by Mosaic to support the fact that the church should only focus on evangelism. But is that true? Did God intend for the
church to be more than just an evangelistic machine?
I wonder what Jesus had in mind when he said that we should make disciples and teach them to observe all that He had commanded. Was evangelism ALL that he had commanded? For example, Paul in Timothy says, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is]
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
What is training in righteousness? How does Mosaic train its members in righteousness. It seems that Mosaic’s philosophy is that if you are trying to win the lost then your own life will some how automatically come together. It has been inferred that as you are out winning the lost, you get
on the job training related to your own walk with God. I don’t know about you, but my inspiration for winning the lost comes from growing closer to God. For me it is closeness to God the results in sharing my faith. It is not, “Sharing my faith results in closeness to God.” My relationship with
God drives my evangelistic spirit. My evangelistic spirit does not drive my relationship to God. Does that make sense? The more I am in His word and learning about Him, the more inspired I am to share Him with others. In my experience motivation for winning the lost comes as I am
trained in righteousness and as my life comes together through the power of God’s Word, then that gives me a wonderful platform upon which to share the Gospel with others. In my opinion Mosaic has envisioned most believers as being spiritual gluttons who only grow fat and do not
use what they have learned to make a difference in the lives of others. So in what seems to be an over reaction, Mosaic in my opinion does very little training and equipping of its individual members and places almost all its efforts on telling them that they should be out winning the lost. If I
am correct, I would have to say that this is not well balanced theology. Believers are told that they should be able to “Feed themselves” and should not look to the pastor or any of the staff to feed them. I wonder why, Jesus told Peter in John’s Gopsel, “If You love me then feed my sheep,
tend my lambs.” If as Mosaic says, it is not the pastor’s job to strengthen the sheep for the work of service then what is his role? In Psalms 23, doesn’t David say that the Lord as a shepherd, leads him by still water and makes him to lie down in green pasture? Isn’t the symbolism there,
that the shepherd is caring for the needs of the sheep? No it does not end there of course! Cared for sheep should be reproducing and making more sheep. Have you ever heard of a Shepard who would tell his flock, “You should care for yourself, You should feed yourself, and your
total focus should be on reproducing.” Does that make sense or am I missing something?
I agree that Mission is why the church exists, but I believe that the Mission incorporates much more that just winning the lost. To say that God cares for those who are lost is absolutely true! To say that he cares for the lost more than he cares for those who are already saved is
absolutely false!
Does the Mission of the Church also include building itself up in love? Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the
edifying of itself in love. Didn’t Jesus say, “By this will all men know you are my disciples, because of your love for one another,” was He talking about love for only non-believers or love within the body itself? If he was talking about Love within the members of the church, then I would
ask, how can members of the church feel loved when the message seems to be “Investing in you is not important, as a matter of fact it is selfish, Your emphasis should only and always be on reaching the lost.” As important as winning the lost is, I would ask again is that the “Only Mission
of the Church.” Why has God made love within the church such an apparent theme. Do saints have needs? Can you think of ways that Mosaic reaches out to the needs within the body? I am asking sincerely, because I don’t know of any structures that are in place to do that.
Mission is why the church exists according to Mosaic, but what exactly does that mission look like according to the totality of Scripture?
February 3, 2007 7:56 AM
Andy said...
I commented here to stand by Robbie and others who believe they have been hurt, unheard, discarded, etc. My intention was/is not to attack the leadership of Mosaic but out of desire for reconciliation between people I respect, realizing that getting at the truth is (obviously at this point)
messy.
I understand there are people here who have issues with the theology of Mosaic. Please consider taking those comments somewhere else. Robbie did not start that discussion, and I don't think it's fair to him or others commenting here to change the topic. On the other hand, if Robbie
has theological issues with Mosaic, then maybe he can write a separate post about that...?
Again, I don't want to debate theology here but focus on the damaged relationships and, ultimately, the hope for reconciliation.
February 3, 2007 8:51 PM
Anonymous said...
Andy, we do want to discuss Mosaic "theology" etc...after all this blog is called, "Discovering Truth".
| Feature Articles: |
| The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic Church, specifically it’s elders (where responsible) and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word. |